EV general discussion
- Thread starter Ricochet J
- Start date
Soldato
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2004
- Posts
- 10,309
- Location
- Milton Keynes
Not saying that's not important, but a family car should be affordable to buy and to run, that is a, if not THE, key criteria, and efficiency in EVs is a large part of that.
A hummer is also large and has buckets of space, but its hardly a viable family car, just because it has a big boot and can take loads of stuff lol
Best family car should be the best balance of size, space, affordability, practical, cheap to run etc...
A hummer is also large and has buckets of space, but its hardly a viable family car, just because it has a big boot and can take loads of stuff lol
Best family car should be the best balance of size, space, affordability, practical, cheap to run etc...
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 19 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 18,726
- Location
- Shakespeare’s County
Its a versitile MPV ideal for family use and cheaper than the ID.Buzz - no suprise really.
Oh no its 120MPG equivalent compared to an efficient 150mpg.... all irrelevant for most normal muggles.
Otherwise you should all be driving Honda Insights like me and aiming for efficient fuel use - hypocrits
Oh no its 120MPG equivalent compared to an efficient 150mpg.... all irrelevant for most normal muggles.
Its an EV. Box ticked there
Otherwise you should all be driving Honda Insights like me and aiming for efficient fuel use - hypocrits
Last edited:
Which bits do you think the PV5 falls down on then really?
Size - shorter and narrower (but taller) than a Tesla Model Y - seems pretty good to me
Space - acres of space, seats configs etc.
Affordability - the big battery version is about £40k, which doesn't seem particularly mad
Practical - how much more practical do you want?
Cheap to run - it'll be dirt cheap to run
Doesn't look like that pv5 is an mpv, no commander seats that you can rotate to have a family picnic/office inside with a table, like the espace / Buzz ?
for those considering tesla deals - comments on pistonheads a few weeks back that folks were immediately cheaply extending lease to 3 years too.
for those considering tesla deals - comments on pistonheads a few weeks back that folks were immediately cheaply extending lease to 3 years too.
Soldato
- Joined
- 19 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 18,726
- Location
- Shakespeare’s County
A Citroen Grand Picasso does not have rotating seats so no idea what you are in about - its not a Winnebago.
Neither does a Buzz.
Neither does a Buzz.
Soldato
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2004
- Posts
- 10,309
- Location
- Milton Keynes
Size - ignoring the shape, I agree with you there on size and space, beyond it looking terrible, I get the point here.
Affordability - 40k is a lot for a family vehicle, I'd argue your average family vehicle wants to be a lot closer to 25-30K. Something like a Ford Focus is a good guide target; official price is £30k but its regularly available for considerably less new from dealers. Especially with the rise of small city car EVs like the Hyundai Insta and the likes around £20k, this feels like too much of a jump up for the average family; especially when you consider the vast amount of families buy older cars, or buy with a target in mind if they do buy new.
Cheap to run - at the rate electricity prices are rising, it's not going to be awful but its not going to be cheap for an EV either, 3.6miles per KwH at BEST, meaning likely below 3 miles per KwH in many cases is not going to be that cheap to drive at all. I got stuck on loan at points with several Stellantis models which offers similar promises, and the reality was anything but. I expect more from Kia, but it doesn't defeat the fact there are plenty of EVs out there hitting 3.5-4.5 or higher equivalents, and I think more economical should always be the target, especially for a car where that should be a priority; this should be a cheap car, with cheap running costs, to get the family from A-B.
Ultimately, I appreciate it's a balancing act, but I feel like this misses the mark in a few ways.
Last edited:
£40k was the top end of the range for the PV5 - they start from £34k, which I would consider very reasonably for something that's a significant step above a Ford Focus as a family car really.
Even 'expensive for an EV' is ultimately still 'very cheap' in general at the moment - if you're charging at home, you're still talking a few pence per mile compared to something like a Ford Focus costing more like 15p per mile in fuel alone.
For what you're getting here, it is a cheap car, with cheap running costs - I don't see much comparable out there ticking all the other boxes and then besting this thing on cost and efficiency too.
Look at it another way, what new car do you think is hitting all the marks better than this is? I can't really think of much at all
That extra £66 is the difference between solvency and bankruptcy10k miles at 4m/kWh: 2,500kWh = £200/year
10k miles at 3m/kWh: 3,333kWh = £266/year
The additional expense is horrifying isn't it
Soldato
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2004
- Posts
- 10,309
- Location
- Milton Keynes
That would be great if that was the average price, but the average price for electricity across the country is closer to 29-33p per KwH (and rising rapidly after the price cap raise today, based on my review of available tariffs the last few weeks since Fuse announced the death of thiers); and whilst EV tariffs can be considerably cheaper overnight; they're not available 24/7, often for as little as 5 hours a night. Then factor in if you need to use public charging for any reason, there are still plenty who CAN'T get chargers at home, and if you use public charging you're usually talking 60-90p per KwH.The focus on efficiency is so misguided... Let's do the maths
Electric at 8p/kWh
10k miles at 4m/kWh: 2,500kWh = £200/year
10k miles at 3m/kWh: 3,333kWh = £266/year
The additional expense is horrifying isn't it
Not trying to be funny, and when it works it's great, but that's an extremely optimistic average cost of electric to assume everyone will always be able to have best EV night rates, and that the average family motorist acts like an EV enthusiast;for many people it'll look more like the following:
Electric at say (an example ballpark) 40p/kWh averaged between home and public. 40p/KwH based on assuming mostly home standard rate charging at say 33p per KwH daytime rate after the price cap increase today, with a bit of public charging at 65-95p/kwh
10k miles at 4m/kWh: 2,500kWh = £1000/year
10k miles at 3m/kWh: 3,333kWh = £1333/year
An extra £333 isn't crazy, but it's not nothing, especially with the price of everything else spiralling; and, assuming ~15p for a diesel or petrol, that would take the 3m/kWH to around 13.3p a mile; not really that much different to said petrol/diesel; which means the sometimes substantial additional cost of an EV vs Petrol/Diesel vehicle is no longer offset in lower running costs, at least not substantially. On top of that, losing against one of the other few benefits old petrol/diesel cars have, in the sense that many will do 300-400 miles on a single tank of fuel, something which most EVs still do not.
People keep presenting 8p or similar EV tariff low rates/kWh as though it's the default cost of electricity. It isn't. It's a specialist off-peak tariff available only under certain conditions and for a limited period overnight. Plenty of drivers will pay considerably more than that, whether because they're on standard tariffs, can't always charge overnight, or occasionally rely on public charging. People are also assuming behaviour from EV enthusiasts like a lot of us, not from an average family car owner.
Not trying to be funny, but the average motorist/family driver doesn't:
-spend time on EV forums,
-compare charger networks,
-optimise every charge session,
-monitor pence-per-kWh figures,
-schedule around the cheapest windows.
They just want the car charged and to have charged when they unplug it to use it lol
When people quote ultra low EV tariff rates, the general assumption is:
-the person has access to an EV tariff,
-has a compatible charger or vehicle,
-plugs in during the correct window,
-rarely needs public charging.
EV enthusiasts will often achieve at least some of that. A more average family motorist, not so much.
Look, I'm not knocking Electric, or saying the PV5 is a bad car, I love my BYD Seal, and I'm about a decade into EV ownership; but it's very easy to base everything around optimal figures, when the average person won't be achieving that and ignoring the buy in cost. My old Ioniq genuinely used to do 4.5-5.5 miles/kWH averaged, sometimes more in Summer, was available around 30k, and I don't see any reason we shouldn't be aiming for more of these cars to achieve better figures; seeing vehicles coming out with real world figures close to 2.5-3.5 is just a depressing lack of progress 10 years later. It feels really dissapointing given how efficient some earlier EVs like the Ioniq proved an EV could be, to be the point the savings with one of those vs fossil fuels could be absolutely massive, especially considering back then the average home electric rate was closer to 15p per KwH, and now, with electric rates as they are, Auto Express are celebrating something that in real world will likely do 3m/kwh? That's a step backwards, not progress.
My TLDR point, as I realise this has gone on a bit, isn't that the PV5 is a terrible family car. My point is that efficiency still really matters, especially for a family car that will be treated...a lot less carefully than the average EV owners pride and joy haha. People keep quoting 8p/kWh or similar EV tariff rate charging costs as though everyone achieves them and can use them and that will determine the cost of the car, but many drivers won't, especially your average mum with a family car who'll just plug in when she gets back, and isn't at all enthusiastic about the car; and might plug in to a fast charger when out and about. At that point the difference between efficiency ratings tarts becoming quite meaningful again, assuming the family can even afford it the buy in price in the first place. A family car should be practical, affordable and efficient, not just practical.
Given a Ford Focus can often be had for ~£21k new on offer; I'd argue that's far more likely to fit the average family bill than a 35-40K EV, even if it does have a range of benefits; especially as the average UK disposable income is doing anything but growing dramatically right now.
If we're discussing family car practicality and affordability, we shouldn't and cannot ignore the fact a BEV could cost 50-100% more to buy than many mainstream family cars like the Focus, and most people in the UK right now, are likely thinking 'can I afford the 21k' car, not 'should I chose the 25K or the 35K car'.
Fundamentally though this point has come up because Auto Express recommended an admittedly large and versatile, but unefficient and expensive EV as thier family car of the year. All of which feels like it is fundamentally missing the point given the current position most UK families are actually in; especially when smaller EVs like the Dacia Spring, Hyundai Insta, and BYD Dolphin are really taking off, at much lower price points, and with higher efficiency to boot. The best family car shouldn't necessarily be the biggest or most versatile family car; it should be the vehicle that best balances practicality, efficiency, and affordability for the largest number of families. Most families won't even be able to afford the PV5, whether the £34k or the 40k model. Ford Focus at 21K or BYD Dolphin at 25K? Much more realistic, because that will realistically change the monthly finance substantially (as most people don't buy cash anymore for new).
If the argument had been a BYD Dolphin was the family car of the year, with around 4m/kwh and a 25K buy in or VERY low APR finance options, I'd have been much happier! A BYD Dolphin doing roughly 4 mi/kWh and costing £25k isn't just one of these - cheaper to buy, cheaper to finance, cheaper to insure, cheaper to run, it's potentially cheaper in every category simultaneously which makes it FAR, FAR, FAR more suitable for a family car of the year, even if it isn't as large.
Auto Express just feel fundamentally out of touch with what most families are going through in the UK right now, and it just makes the PV5 a poor and egregious choice, especially during a cost of living crunch. Something balancing buy in, running costs and practicality would have been far, far, far more in touch with the average family right now.
I'd be saying the same if they recommended a large SUV because it was big, if it missed the point like I feel the PV5 does, before you even consider it looks like a lunchbox with breathing holes
If Auto Express gave Family Car of the Year to a £60k Range Rover because it had a huge boot and loads of room, most people would immediately ask why they chose that, because most families won't be able to afford it.
That's basically what I'm highlighting here about the PV5, I'm not saying the PV5 is a bad vehicle.
I'm saying that a niche, £34-40k electric MPV with relatively poor efficiency, and moderate range, is a pretty strange choice to represent british families in 2026!
Last edited:
As someone in N. Ireland we don’t get those smart EV tariffs. But what we get is substantially cheaper standing charges, 13p per day.
So while I agree those trying to claim their EV only costs 7p per KW are being very selective with the truth. What I don’t agree with is going the other way and using the costs of normal tariffs. I would say most people with an EV know the benefits of EV tariffs, so at minimum will be charging a way below that 33p per kW rate you claim.
Also why do we still have this myth that only fossil fuel cars can be had on “special offers” when comparing “new” prices?
So while I agree those trying to claim their EV only costs 7p per KW are being very selective with the truth. What I don’t agree with is going the other way and using the costs of normal tariffs. I would say most people with an EV know the benefits of EV tariffs, so at minimum will be charging a way below that 33p per kW rate you claim.
Also why do we still have this myth that only fossil fuel cars can be had on “special offers” when comparing “new” prices?
For reference an MG.4 long range can be had in special offer for ~£22k.
If a Focus at £21k is a good family option, then an MG4 with 250 summer and 200 winter range is even better. It would save well ~£1000 -£1500 per year on fuel costs.
We really have reached price parity. Even used you end up with much more car for your money considering the first year or two depreciation on EVs. By year 3 on the depreciation curve starts to actually favour EV, and that’s before any fuel savings.
If a Focus at £21k is a good family option, then an MG4 with 250 summer and 200 winter range is even better. It would save well ~£1000 -£1500 per year on fuel costs.
We really have reached price parity. Even used you end up with much more car for your money considering the first year or two depreciation on EVs. By year 3 on the depreciation curve starts to actually favour EV, and that’s before any fuel savings.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2004
- Posts
- 10,309
- Location
- Milton Keynes
A lot of enthusiast do, but once you start moving towards family cars, you have to consider that the average family car driver will not be as clued up, and is far more likely to be driven by the mum etc. A non enthusiast or particularly clued up driver. Looking at the average consumer, most of them just cannot be relied upon to manage charging cycles etc, they just want to plug in and have done. That's a very real reality.
And the reason special offers get brought up on cars is because they regularly do, I got several K off mine, you just have to be in the right place at the right time, and the more common/more available the vehicle, the more likely discounts are to get pushed.
To quote google:
"Brand-new Ford Focus models typically see discounts of £3,000 to £6,000 off RRP. While exact 2026 Focus base models start around £28,500 , aggressive broker deals and dealer contributions regularly drop the price closer to the £21,000 to £23,000 mark for new or unregistered entry-level and ST-Line variants. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Typical New Focus Deals
- Entry / Titanium Trims: RRPs start at £29,575 , but broker platforms frequently discount these to £21,000 – £23,000 depending on stock.
- ST-Line / Active Trims: Sportier and mid-range trims typically list for £30,000+, but dealer discounts and factory deposit contributions bring the cash price down to £24,000 – £25,000. [1, 2, 3, 4]
How to Achieve a £21,000 Price Point
- Pre-Registered Models: Nearly-new cars with less than 500 miles on the clock are one of the best ways to hit this target without sacrificing new-car condition . [1]
- Online Brokers: Using platforms like Carwow or UK Car Discount allows you to source vehicles from dealerships nationwide that need to meet quarterly targets, often resulting in massive RRP markdowns. [1, 2, 3]
- Ford Privilege / Advantage: If you are an employee of Ford, a supplier company, or have a direct family member who is, you can access the Ford Privilege Scheme, which allows significant manufacturer savings (sometimes up to £6,000 off). [1, 2]"
Last edited: