EV general discussion

[lovelyhead]

Exactly, everybody seemed to entirely ignore the fact that the original point was about the MG vs the 208 and honed in on the examples used to show what the MG was good at to make sure lovelyhead knew it definitely wasn't good and he was very mistaken to use other vehicles to make some simple comparisons.

I think most of the comments arguing with me are people just jumping on the bandwagon without actually understanding the original point I was making.

 

[lovelyhead]

I’d much rather have an ID 7 for 35k – much better car and very reliable

I saw one of those the other day and really liked the look of it. But you are absolutely wrong about it being a reliable car because I have heard that a Toyota HiLux survived a fall from an exploding tower block and I am sure that it isn't a better car because the colour you like the best is wrong.

Edit: Ha I didn't even notice your username!

 

[Nabinium]

I've been contemplating an EV for the new family car and right now the man maths makes sense but I can't help but feel that in the not too distant future, when all that lovely fuel duty money starts disappearing, there will be little point.

Surely they'll start taxing on electricity used for car charging or shafting us some other way and with those costs + road tax + the general inconvenience of an EV, it means you're probably better off sticking with an ICE if you already have one?

I generally think it'll be the opposite. An ICE is getting more expensive to run, especially if you do a lot of mileage.

 

[MOOGLEYS]

It's really not. Flooring it down a motorway slip road is very fun. Being able to leave the lights way faster than pretty much any other car on the road is useful.

Sounds like a race invite…. Lol

I need to use sport mode to deal with these Xpower things they are pretty nippy but the build quality makes my KIA look premium.

 

[MOOGLEYS]

I’d much rather have an ID 7 for 35k – much better car and very reliable

One of our friends has one of these as her company car. I really like it it’s very comfortable.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

We have an abarth 600e coming next week, which I've never even driven (but wife's car so not my problem, plus was from the bargain basement deal a few months ago). Would be interesting to drive all the "hot" stellantis cars back to back and test how different or otherwise they feel

Mines at Bristol docks, hopefully collecting in the next couple of weeks. I haven't seen one, never mind driven one

 

[Funky-Melon]

So you envisage EV's getting more expensive to run but not ICE cars?

Also what inconvenience?

No, I accept that ICE cars certainly cost more to run and maintain and that EV's are currently significantly cheaper but this is only because they are still a minority.

I envisage the government, when they start losing the huge amounts in tax that comes from petrol/diesel, they'll then have to shift it onto electric car owners - they've got to keep the pot topped up still haven't they, how else will they do it? Its already happening with the price per mile tax and as EVs grow in popularity they'll be seeking other ways to recoup the money lost from fossil fuels.

Inconvenience...yeah I'll get slandered in an EV thread for this but..

- depreciation is laughable on most EV's
- infrastructure whilst getting there, still isn't great
- range anxiety is still a thing
- charge times are still lengthy depending where you end up charging
- less to go wrong but when they do, they're going to cost a huge amount to fix
- only really save you money if you can charge at home and all of that could change very quickly with the cost of energy rising

 

[MOOGLEYS]

Even when its costs as much to charge an EV as to fuel a petrol car I would still rather drive an EV. I would really struggle to go back now tbh.

 

[david25]

No, I accept that ICE cars certainly cost more to run and maintain and that EV's are currently significantly cheaper but this is only because they are still a minority.

I envisage the government, when they start losing the huge amounts in tax that comes from petrol/diesel, they'll then have to shift it onto electric car owners - they've got to keep the pot topped up still haven't they, how else will they do it? Its already happening with the price per mile tax and as EVs grow in popularity they'll be seeking other ways to recoup the money lost from fossil fuels.

Inconvenience...yeah I'll get slandered in an EV thread for this but..

- depreciation is laughable on most EV's
- infrastructure whilst getting there, still isn't great
- range anxiety is still a thing
- charge times are still lengthy depending where you end up charging
- less to go wrong but when they do, they're going to cost a huge amount to fix
- only really save you money if you can charge at home and all of that could change very quickly with the cost of energy rising

Get used ID3 or Born, £13k
Infrastructure, check your area
Range, ID3 with the big battery is fine
Charge times, how many miles do you do?

Reliability, check this https://www.electrifying.com/blog/a...-evs-far-less-likely-to-fail-than-petrol-cars

 

[Penfold101]

- depreciation is laughable on most EV's

Don’t by brand new.

- infrastructure whilst getting there, still isn't great

Only a problem if you need to rely on public charging to survive, in which case EV ownership isn’t for you yet.

- range anxiety is still a thing

Only to those who haven’t tried living with an EV.

- charge times are still lengthy depending where you end up charging

Only a problem if you need to rely on public charging to survive, in which case EV ownership isn’t for you yet.

- less to go wrong but when they do, they're going to cost a huge amount to fix

Same with any modern car.

- only really save you money if you can charge at home and all of that could change very quickly with the cost of energy rising

Actually true.

 

[tom_e]

I'll get slandered in an EV thread for this but..

- depreciation is laughable on most EV's
- infrastructure whilst getting there, still isn't great
- range anxiety is still a thing
- charge times are still lengthy depending where you end up charging
- less to go wrong but when they do, they're going to cost a huge amount to fix
- only really save you money if you can charge at home and all of that could change very quickly with the cost of energy rising

Only because if you've actually lived with one they're generally not points anyone actually worries about, and depreciation is laughable on anything brand new.

 

[Funky-Melon]

I told you I'd get slandered on those points I'm not an EV hater, I'm genuinely considering one, those points were not the reason I'm on the fence on getting one. I can charge at home no problem. My initial point over what the government will likely end up doing to recoup costs it what concerns me.

Spend £15-20k on a second hand EV, another £1k on a charger then energy prices go up, government introduces yet more taxes in a year or so, to the point where I'd be no better off having over over my 3L BMW.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I told you I'd get slandered on those points I'm not an EV hater, I'm genuinely considering one, those points were not the reason I'm on the fence on getting one. I can charge at home no problem. My initial point over what the government will likely end up doing to recoup costs it what concerns me.

Spend £15-20k on a second hand EV, another £1k on a charger then energy prices go up, government introduces yet more taxes in a year or so, to the point where I'd be no better off having over over my 3L BMW.

Fuel duty raises approx. £24 billion per annum, this will have to be transferred over to electric vehicles eventually. The cost to run your ice vehicle isn't going to remain where it is whilst that happens, it's going to continue to spiral, forcing the stragglers over to ev. Those stragglers are going to miss the truly cheap ev running costs we've been seeing, whilst paying eye watering costs to continue driving ice vehicles.

And long may they continue, it helps fend off the fuel duty for those of us with milk floats

 

[tamzzy]

Spend £15-20k on a second hand EV, another £1k on a charger then energy prices go up, government introduces yet more taxes in a year or so, to the point where I'd be no better off having over over my 3L BMW.

I did exactly that last year. Here is how that worked out for me:

as is always the case, do the maths before and don't rely on anyone else
for me personally, the depreciation (or lack thereof, as i bought it used), fuel savings, insurance savings and servicing savings just sweetened the deal for my man maths

going from my 440i to my model 3 the cost to change was £600 (sold my 440i for £20k, my model 3 cost £20.6k) and from the depreciation graphs when i was researching, a 3 year old EV had the same depreciation curve as its ICE equivalent going forwards as someone already paid for the massive depreciation in the 3 years prior
installing an EV charger at home was £1k

the insurance was £400 cheaper on the model 3
saved £260/yr on not paying the bmw insured warranty
saving about £400/yr as no yearly servicing required

4k miles travelled on my model 3 to date about 8 months
total electricity cost: £86 - this includes a handful of supercharging stops i did during the summer
the equivalent in my 440i (lifetime average was 32mpg using RON98/99...assume about 150p/L) = £848

so basically in 8 months, i'm already quids in (saved about £260) and the difference is going to get larger as the running costs (insurance, servicing, fuel) is so much cheaper with an EV for me. as always, YMMV

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Fuel duty raises approx. £24 billion per annum, this will have to be transferred over to electric vehicles eventually. The cost to run your ice vehicle isn't going to remain where it is whilst that happens, it's going to continue to spiral, forcing the stragglers over to ev. Those stragglers are going to miss the truly cheap ev running costs we've been seeing, whilst paying eye watering costs to continue driving ice vehicles.

And long may they continue, it helps fend off the fuel duty for those of us with milk floats

Not all of that 24bn comes from cars, only about £14-15bn does plus about £3bn in VAT on that fuel duty.

Edit: so about £500 per car on average.

 

[tamzzy]

- depreciation is laughable on most EV's

As usual, the devil is in the detail and it's not that black and white:

(As I've said previously), the devil is in the detail.
Most EVs are bought via salary sacrifice/company schemes so the price paid for these comes from pre-tax income.

So, for a 60k car that's "worth" £20k after 3 years...it seems like a £40k depreciation, but this £40k is paid pre-income tax.
If taking into account minimal BIK and 40-45% tax band, the owner only paid about £25k of that £40k depreciation. Without the EV, the rest of the £15k would've been paid as tax to HMRC in any case. So there really isn't any "loss" per se as it wouldn't have affected the take home pay.

Basically a £25k depreciation from a £45k car doesn't sound as bad now, really.

Obviously, the above doesn't apply to private buyers of new EVs, but these buyers are the exceptions and will have to suck it up unfortunately.

 

[david25]

I told you I'd get slandered on those points I'm not an EV hater, I'm genuinely considering one, those points were not the reason I'm on the fence on getting one. I can charge at home no problem. My initial point over what the government will likely end up doing to recoup costs it what concerns me.

Spend £15-20k on a second hand EV, another £1k on a charger then energy prices go up, government introduces yet more taxes in a year or so, to the point where I'd be no better off having over over my 3L BMW.

You'll have years of cheap electricity before the real squeeze.

The average UK mileage is 7500, no need for a dedicated charger, just use a 3-pin.

 

[Funky-Melon]

The cost to run your ice vehicle isn't going to remain where it is whilst that happens, it's going to continue to spiral, forcing the stragglers over to ev. Those stragglers are going to miss the truly cheap ev running costs we've been seeing, whilst paying eye watering costs to continue driving ice vehicles.

Yeah, I guess this is the way it could go. EV's will essentially cost what an ICE does now to run but in 5 years time they'll still be cheaper to run than ICE.

I only do ~7000 miles a year. I'm in the office 1 day a week which is 53 miles each way and the rest is mostly local trips. I occasionally do a longer trip up north to see family ~180 miles but I guess I'd just have to stop half way to charge and accept it'll only be a bit cheaper than brimming a petrol tank (pre Trump madness prices anyway). I have a 6 month old which will be going to nursery 3/5 days next year so I guess an EV makes a lot of sense for that kinda stop start driving.

The wife isn't a fan of the styling of most of them, which is the next hurdle. She likes the EV6 but hates the interior and likes the Polestar 2 but hates the rear of it - Sigh

 

[tamzzy]

I occasionally do a longer trip up north to see family ~180 miles but I guess I'd just have to stop half way to charge and accept it'll only be a bit cheaper than brimming a petrol tank (pre Trump madness prices anyway).

Incorrect, it'll still be vastly cheaper. The way to do it is to charge to 100% before you set off.
Say you have a model 3 with a 300 mile range.

That 180 mile trip on the way there can be done without stopping.

You'll reach with about 40% charge left.

On the return journey you will stop at a supercharger midway and charge for about 10-15 mins. Say 25% charge which should be about 20kwh. At supercharger rates at 48p/kWh peak time rates...that'll be £10.

For your full charge from home initially...
At 26.5p/kWh price cap rate for 75kwh = £19.88

So, that's £30 for a 360mile round trip for the worst case scenario.

If you have an EV tariff at 7p/kWh (EDF/IOG) = £5.25 for a full charge at home (£15.25 total cost)

£30 at current petrol prices for a 3L bimmer at 32mpg? Won't even get you to your destination in the first place...much less at £15.25...

 

[TheVoice]

- charge times are still lengthy depending where you end up charging

Fortunately that's a bit of an outdated concern at this point, the charging networks are improving constantly and unless you're going somewhere remote, there'll be suitably fast charging available somewhere on the way.