Explain to me (in simple terms) this hate for diesel?

Rainmaker;30483725 said:
return equally good MPG without worrying about EGRs, DPFs and filling up with urea for the exhaust.

This isn't true though, is it? I'd much rather live in a world where we all drive petrol cars but you are exaggerating somewhat here. Whether it's by enough of a margin to make financial sense, a diesel engine is more fuel efficient than the equivalent petrol engine. This is why people were incentivised by government to buy them in the first place - they use less fuel and they emit less CO2, so an environment has been created whereby fuel is expensive and CO2 drives (until this year) taxation.

The result is people buy diesels - they want to use less of an expensive commodity, fuel. Look at a market where fuel is not punitively taxed, like say the US or UAE, and you'll find almost no diesels.

It used to be the case that diesel was a complex nightmare and petrol was simple and reliable, but those days are long gone because now the average petrol engine is just as full of complicated direct injection turbocharger systems and even particulate filters are on the way.

European governments have created an entire market for these things and they cannot now turn around, say LOLLLLLL and screw everyone over who participates in a market they crafted over decades.

I drive a diesel simply because it's the only realistic choice in the market segment in which I buy my cars. The petrol versions are noticeably less efficient so nobody buys them and you can't find them used. Would I rather pick a petrol model and pay 30p a litre less for fuel? You bet. Let me know when this utopia exists.

This whole backlash is about 15 years too late. Talk about closing the door after the horse has bolted - by the time anything meaningful shifts in terms of vehicles on the road most diesels left on the road will be Euro 6 anyway and the really bad ones will have been scrapped naturally!
 
Dis86;30485691 said:
Depends on more factors such as gearing and traction but 5bhp is going to be pretty much invisible to the average driver.

that's not my point, my point is that the "105" brake car feels slower on the roads than the 100 brake car, because unless you've got the turbo spooled up (ie bad emissions and mpg) it doesnt move.

i agree it shouldn't feel any faster to the average driver, and even on a track the difference should be negligible. my point is it shouldn't feel slower.
 
Six6siX;30487174 said:
Because they sound like a loud rattly rattle can and smell? dag dag dag dag.

I'll take a V8 and the glorious smell of unburnt petrol thanks :p

Hmmn, My old LC80 (4.2 straight 6) doesn't rattle, It actually has a rather pleasant deep rumble, a bit like being on board a ship. (All iron construction helps I guess) It also has a nice turbo whine at at part load (Straight through exhaust :D)

My other Diesel (VW T4, 2.4 5 Cyl) doesn't rattle either and actually has an early Quatro sound to it when revved hard! :p :D

Neither has any Computers, Sensors, EGR, DMF, DPF, whatever, and neither is rammed in there so that you cant get at anything without pulling the car to pieces. IE All that makes modern Diesels (And Petrols for that matter) such a bloody expensive nightmare to maintain and repair, and I intend to continue to run both of them them for as long as I possibly can.

:cool:

Oh, and PS,

If I ""Hyper-mile" on Motorway/DC roads (And **** of the speeders :D ) I can get nearly 40MPG out of the LC (I recorded 37 tank to tank once, though normally its arround 18-22)
 
Dis86;30487725 said:
It's also more energy rich so you need to burn less of it to release the same amount of energy.

Only by volume, which to be fair is how it's sold. Compared by mass it has less energy.
 
Nasher;30488047 said:
Diesel is a byproduct of petrol production, it has less energy. By the laws of the universe it can't contain more :D

I don't think you understand physics or chemistry very well.
 
As someone who works in central London, I've developed an irrational hatred of diesels from a pollution perspective. They churn out so much more nasty pollutants and they definitely make up the lions share of the cars in the city. I often fantasise about a city-wide ban on all diesel cars :D

I'm kind of happy Uber is destroying the black cab population. All those hybrid cars the drivers use are contributing far less to pollution than the legions of black cabs sitting their idling for no reason whatsoever.
 
Modern diesels are not as bad. My Skoda which is cat 6 is fairly quite and has low emission output.

Older diesels pre DPF filters are the issue really....
 
[TW]Fox;30487802 said:
This isn't true though, is it? I'd much rather live in a world where we all drive petrol cars but you are exaggerating somewhat here. Whether it's by enough of a margin to make financial sense, a diesel engine is more fuel efficient than the equivalent petrol engine.

In some circumstances, yes. Or perhaps I should have said 'On paper, yes'. The thing is, most of the cars on the road don't get used as long-distance repmobiles or taxis (like Glasgow Rob's Mondeo) and diesel is useless until it warms up. If someone is a driving enthusiast they'll not want a diesel anyway, and would gladly pay £10 to £20 a week extra on fuel for their motorway/GT/family car to have a proper engine.

If their car is like their tumble dryer or washing machine, and/or they do a lot of local journeys, and/or they don't do many miles a year, then they won't care whether it's a 2.0 TDI or a 1.4 TSI doing similar economy on their mostly short journeys (and the latter would be cheaper to tax).

Our 2.0 TSI currently gives 32mpg to a tank if I stay around the city, but with even one or two decent motorway runs thrown in the average skews up to around 38mpg for the tank (it does mid 40s MPG on the motorway easily). If I'd gone for a smaller car (rather than a hulking great Superb), and/or a smaller FI petrol engine, that would be significantly higher again. A Mazda 3 SkyActiv 2.0 will basically refuse to do less than 50mpg around town even on short trips; I know because I've run one. Show me a similar diesel that will do that. Diesel starts to make sense for long motorway miles, but that's not what I argued against and it's not what you pulled me up for. I said petrols will do similar economy without the DPF/EGR/SCR stuff to worry about, and I'm not wrong - it's just not under every scenario.

My brother got a brand new 2.0 TDI (150ps) around the same time we got the 2.0 TSI (220ps), because he 'wanted to save money on fuel'. He's currently struggling to break 30mpg in his, and will see mid 30s on a longer journey. Meanwhile I don't see less than 30mpg even nipping a mile down the road from cold, and hit mid 40s without trying within a few miles. He thought it was broken, but the dealer says 'Nope, they're all like that - it'll do better after the first fifty miles when it's properly warmed up. You should hit 50mpg eventually.'... He was busy cursing buying it, but he had to interrupt his rant to go and fill up the AdBlue and clear his DPF warning light. I wish I was making this up! He doesn't do lots of little journeys either, he lives in a remote village.

I'm luckily in a position where I don't need to care, and our next car will be an XFR 5.0 supercharged V8 unless I change my mind for something different but similar.

TLDR; the mighty Fox has to drive a stinky diesel now, so is desperate to justify it in the same way all the other drivers of the devil's fuel do - 'torque' and empeegees. :p ;) </sarcasm>
 
I tow, so will stick with a modern diesel for now thanks. Plenty of other things are killing the environment. Has anyone talked about banning jets yet?
 
Uther;30489147 said:
I tow, so will stick with a modern diesel for now thanks. Plenty of other things are killing the environment. Has anyone talked about banning jets yet?

Screw the jets, how about we start with the coal/oil power stations?

Except ofc we'd have to replace it with nuclear, and the nimbys wont like that
 
Joe T;30489240 said:
Eh? China are leading the way on this one.

Well countered,

Its still funny though how we talk about diesels like this, but plenty of less developed places you'll still see plenty of reek coming from ancient vehicles and infrastructure.

Surely bringing these areas up to our current standards will have a much greater overall impact than trying to squeeze diminishing returns.
 
adolf hamster;30489289 said:
Well countered,

Its still funny though how we talk about diesels like this, but plenty of less developed places you'll still see plenty of reek coming from ancient vehicles and infrastructure.

Surely bringing these areas up to our current standards will have a much greater overall impact than trying to squeeze diminishing returns.

This is my opinion too.

I'm all for a collaborative effort in making the environment cleaner, but when pollution from other countries can still make their way to the UK (Weather dependent), then it does raise the question of all the effort involved, when we're still being polluted by something out of our control.
 
Rainmaker;30489072 said:
In some circumstances, yes. Or perhaps I should have said 'On paper, yes'. The thing is, most of the cars on the road don't get used as long-distance repmobiles or taxis (like Glasgow Rob's Mondeo) and diesel is useless until it warms up. If someone is a driving enthusiast they'll not want a diesel anyway, and would gladly pay £10 to £20 a week extra on fuel for their motorway/GT/family car to have a proper engine.

If their car is like their tumble dryer or washing machine, and/or they do a lot of local journeys, and/or they don't do many miles a year, then they won't care whether it's a 2.0 TDI or a 1.4 TSI doing similar economy on their mostly short journeys (and the latter would be cheaper to tax).

Our 2.0 TSI currently gives 32mpg to a tank if I stay around the city, but with even one or two decent motorway runs thrown in the average skews up to around 38mpg for the tank (it does mid 40s MPG on the motorway easily). If I'd gone for a smaller car (rather than a hulking great Superb), and/or a smaller FI petrol engine, that would be significantly higher again. A Mazda 3 SkyActiv 2.0 will basically refuse to do less than 50mpg around town even on short trips; I know because I've run one. Show me a similar diesel that will do that. Diesel starts to make sense for long motorway miles, but that's not what I argued against and it's not what you pulled me up for. I said petrols will do similar economy without the DPF/EGR/SCR stuff to worry about, and I'm not wrong - it's just not under every scenario.

My brother got a brand new 2.0 TDI (150ps) around the same time we got the 2.0 TSI (220ps), because he 'wanted to save money on fuel'. He's currently struggling to break 30mpg in his, and will see mid 30s on a longer journey. Meanwhile I don't see less than 30mpg even nipping a mile down the road from cold, and hit mid 40s without trying within a few miles. He thought it was broken, but the dealer says 'Nope, they're all like that - it'll do better after the first fifty miles when it's properly warmed up. You should hit 50mpg eventually.'... He was busy cursing buying it, but he had to interrupt his rant to go and fill up the AdBlue and clear his DPF warning light. I wish I was making this up! He doesn't do lots of little journeys either, he lives in a remote village.

I'm luckily in a position where I don't need to care, and our next car will be an XFR 5.0 supercharged V8 unless I change my mind for something different but similar.

TLDR; the mighty Fox has to drive a stinky diesel now, so is desperate to justify it in the same way all the other drivers of the devil's fuel do - 'torque' and empeegees. :p ;) </sarcasm>

I have the 185bhp TDi in my VRS and I average 52mpg combined driving.... Does your brother have a lead right foot... :-)
 
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