External DAC to improve Android Phone with Tidal usage?

Freakbro

Freakbro

Freakbro

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After a recent upgrade of my stero amp and speakers I've been back into music in a big way.

My main source of music is either CD or Tidal Premium with Master/MQA and Radio 6 via BBC Sounds app.

The amp is a Rega Elicit-R, so analog only inputs. So to give me the ability for BT streaming I purchased an ifi Zen Blue, which to be fair, works great. For convenience, streaming Radio 6 and for background listening it's perfect, but when sat down to "listen" to music for an evening I do think connecting the phone via wired (headphone jack to RCA phono) does give a better presentation. The BT just seems a little more "flat" whereas the wired just has a better depth of soundstage.

But, I do think the headphone jack on the phone is a little weak, you certainly have to crank the volume on the amp compared to BT or CD input and I'm wondering if I'm also hearing the limitations of the phone as a musical DAC source in general (when compared to CD use)

The phone is a Note 8, it's a few years old now and the battery is pretty shot, but I would have thought it's of a decent spec.

So I've been looking at wired external DACs and the questions I have, after the initial one of - will an external DAC improve the sound? are :-

Will the phone output via it's USB C and would that be better than the 3.5mm or make no difference?

I'm reading some info that makes it sound a bit patchy outputting audio via USB on Android phones and that they don't automatically work with all models of DAC?

Do I need an "OTG" cable for audio rather than a general USB cable?

On first look a couple of DACs look interesting :-

Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200M

Pro :- RCA outputs/MQA native decoding

Con :- The USB input is B, so I would need a USB C to B cable (OTG?)

Chord Mojo

Seems a popular portable DAC, though I'm not really needing it's portability

Audiolab M-DAC+

Pro :- Lots of inputs

Con :- Expensive, only has a 6.3mm output

iFi Zen DAC

Pro :- USB 3 input, RCA output

Con :- Why did I buy the Zen blue.... :p
 
I'd still have to convert the optical out as the amp only has RCA inputs?

I do have an Nvidia Shield, which is HDMI only, but that goes to the Denon AVR (pre-outs to the Rega to drive the fronts in HT) and I just want to put a direct source into the Rega for music
 
Hdmi is generally awful for pcm

I'd look for a dedicated audio streamer either with decent dac and analogue stage, or coax optical out then get a dac.
Something like Sonos or squeezebox.
 
My reservation on dedicated audio streamers is, that, without android, they could restrict you to specific streaming apps, android gives you a good parametric equalizer too
so having a usb connected dac, on a phone could be good, can drive that from your armchair too (or in the car)
I currently use a laptop+pci-dac(echo), with long onyx cable to the analogue audiolab amp;
tidal mqa @96/24 is worth it for me, the laptop app does first level mqa decode, and tidal app enable bit perfect stream to dac.

I wouldn't be concerned about getting a mqa capable dac then, but I believe you need a dedicated android app, like usb audio player, to get bit-streaming;
you only need OTG if the dac is powered by the phone, afaik, but for car portability I'd go for that.

I guess you have seen this site
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nation-audio-dac-and-headphone-amplifiers.53/

for phone, I'd been looking at
S.M.S.L Sanskrit 10th MKII AK4493
schiit modi
 
In this household we have 3x Cyrus Soundkeys:

1. In my office: my laptop to Arcam amp
2. My wife's study: Mac to active speakers
3. My iPhone to MediaDevil earphones

In all cases they are a huge upgrade from the onboard DAC. Even using standard Apple earphones the sound is transformed.

The Soundkey is only £59, and worth it for the upgrade. How much better those DACs you listed are over the Soundkey I dont know, and I dont really want to know! :p :)

(For iPhone use an additional cable is required, but it's worth it).
 
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Hi,
Some good suggestions above.

I have a Rega Elex-R and after a few years with a Raspbery Pi and Allo Boss V1 dac hat (very good value for money) I then decided to get an end game Dac (for me) and got a Schiit Gungnir Multibit with an Allo Digione-Signature player transport (Raspberry pi and SPDIF out hat) connected via lan cable, wifi also an option and the step up in sound quality was remarkable. The Dac has very good USB inputs as well so if I was buying now would probably go for the Allo USBridge Signature which was not available at the time.
Allo web site is worth a look for other solutions.

Schiit sell direct via their distributor in the UK and have very good value Dacs etc from £120 (out of stock at time of writing)
Allo and others also do very good value/cheap all in one solutions with on board Dacs, or just start with a Raspberry Pi.
I personally do not buy into MQA, lots of discussion online about the cons and pros.

I use Volumio software (free) with the paid for My Volumio Virtuoso £2.65 a month, this gives me an integrated Tidal (Premium) and my own music library front end so just need any web browser connected to my home network to access Volumio with Tidal, internet radio stations and my bought for and ripped flac files, these can be on a large usb stick connected to the Raspberry pi which is what I have done or most other networked devices capable of serving files.
So I can browse tidal for music, playback tracks, albums, playlist from the comfort of the settee, create playlists that can mix my own music with Tidal, play, pause and stop playback. There are also various free plugins that include parametric equalizers.
I very rarely use my Rega CD player now ;)

I do have an OTG usb cable that I can connect my Android phone to the Dac which works ok with Tidal etc playback, this might need a compatible Dac to work but I`m not sure, but they are cheap enough to take a punt if you decide to go that route.

Another left field suggestion is to use a digital audio player (dap) that has Tidal on it. You lose the huge convenience of web browser control, same as using a phone.

I think for the level of your amp you would definitely benefit from a dac in your playback chain and some type of transport. I personally would not use my phone for playback at home on that level of amp.
I would be a bit reserved with what you read on audioscience, from what I have read they seem to judge equipment on measurements rather than how it sounds :rolleyes:

Maybe audition a few Dacs/streamers in your local (Rega) Hi-Fi shop when they reopen to get an idea of what you would get.

A good place to start for an entertaining read/watch is Darco audio including some up to date thoughts on Raspberry Pi based transports

Have fun
 
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Nobski said:
Hi,
Some good suggestions above.

I have a Rega Elex-R and after a few years with a Raspbery Pi and Allo Boss V1 dac hat (very good value for money) I then decided to get an end game Dac (for me) and got a Schiit Gungnir Multibit with an Allo Digione-Signature player transport (Raspberry pi and SPDIF out hat) connected via lan cable, wifi also an option and the step up in sound quality was remarkable. The Dac has very good USB inputs as well so if I was buying now would probably go for the Allo USBridge Signature which was not available at the time.

Schiit sell direct via their distributor in the UK and have very good value Dacs etc from £120 (out of stock at time of writing)
Allo and others also do very good value/cheap all in one solutions with on board Dacs, or just start with a Raspberry Pi.
I personally do not buy into MQA, lots of discussion online about the cons and pros.

I use Volumio software (free) with the paid for My Volumio Virtuoso £2.65 a month, this gives me an integrated Tidal (Premium) and my own music library front end so just need any web browser connected to my home network to access Volumio with Tidal, internet radio stations and my bought for and ripped flac files, these can be on a large usb stick connected to the Raspberry pi which is what I have done or most other networked devices capable of serving files.
So I can browse tidal for music, playback tracks, albums, playlist from the comfort of the settee, create playlists that can mix my own music with Tidal, play, pause and stop playback. There are also various free plugins that include parametric equalizers.
I very rarely use my Rega CD player now ;)

I do have an OTG usb cable that I can connect my Android phone to the Dac which works ok with Tidal etc playback, this might need a compatible Dac to work but I`m not sure, but they are cheap enough to take a punt if you decide to go that route.

Another left field suggestion is to use a digital audio player (dap) that has Tidal on it. You lose the huge convenience of web browser control, same as using a phone.

I think for the level of your amp you would definitely benefit from a dac in your playback chain and some type of transport. I personally would not use my phone for playback at home on that level of amp.
I would be a bit reserved with what you read on audioscience, from what I have read they seem to judge equipment on measurements rather than how it sounds :rolleyes:

Maybe audition a few Dacs/streamers in your local (Rega) Hi-Fi shop when they reopen to get an idea of what you would get.

A good place to start for an entertaining read/watch is Darco audio including some up to date thoughts on Raspberry Pi based transports

Have fun
Click to expand...

That is the whole point of that site, test without opinions..if want opinions, go to any what hifi etc review, and listen to it.

No rolls eye required if you understand difference between objective and subjective.

Tests will show up if the device is well engineered or not.
 
TALON1973 said:
I don’t know much about it , but I’d seriously look at how android phones deal with hi res music. It’s a real faff by the looks of it . And you get a lot of false positives on playback.
Click to expand...

Does android do bit perfect for Pcm?

Play 44.1khz and see if dac displays 44.1khz or 48khz

Or playback a DTS cd or hdcd and see if dac shows that (mine does hdcd) if it doesn't its not bit perfect
 
hornetstinger said:
That is the whole point of that site, test without opinions..if want opinions, go to any what hifi etc review, and listen to it.

No rolls eye required if you understand difference between objective and subjective.

Tests will show up if the device is well engineered or not.
Click to expand...

Ha-ha,
as a therapist I very much understand the difference between objective and subjective.

With audio equipment it seems to me that do the (chosen/available) variables measured 100% relate to the (enjoyable) reproduction of the music ?

As individuals do our ears all hear and process exactly the same way or do our differences mean that one set of playback equipment will be judged, perceived and valued differently with blind, subjective listening ?

What is the synergy between the required individual components (including the room) to reproduce enjoyable music ?

Tests will show a well engineered device that has been designed to test well with the objective tests that are used, and while this (might) have some value it seems to me that it can become a case of the the tail wagging the dog.

So for me, I have bought equipment that sounds good and is enjoyable to me, you might listen to the same equipment, in my house and agree or disagree, if you disagree does that make my equipment the wrong choice for me ?
 
hornetstinger said:
Does android do bit perfect for Pcm?
Click to expand...
yes - it's the same deal as avoiding the sound mixer on windows, if the playing software is connecting directly with hardware driver.


edit

Nobski said:
I personally do not buy into MQA, lots of discussion online about the cons and pros
Click to expand...
nonetheless - if you want to benefit from their master recordings you need a software unfolding of first level of MQA to give 96/24 ?

Nobski said:
So I can browse tidal for music, playback tracks, albums, playlist from the comfort of the settee
Click to expand...
not sure I understand -
so you use a web-browser on your phone from the settee, connecting to a http server on the rasberry pi ? where would the tidal (browsing) interface be running ?
 
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jpaul said:
nonetheless - if you want to benefit from their master recordings you need a software unfolding of first level of MQA to give 96/24 ?
Click to expand...
from earlier thread -

An MQA encoded file can be played back in four ways; with no decoding, software decoding, hardware decoding, and a combined software/hardware decode.

If you play back a 24-bit/192kHz MQA-encoded file using iTunes through a regular DAC (i.e. a non-MQA DAC), you will get a 24/48 file.

If you play back a 24-bit/192kHz MQA-encoded file through an MQA software decoder like Tidal HiFi, Audirvana, or (soon) Roon, and you are using a regular DAC (i.e. a non-MQA DAC), you will get a 24/96 file. A software decoder does not offer the ability to 'unfold' the original file to resolutions higher than 24/96 (or 24/88.2).

If you play back a 24-bit/192kHz MQA-encoded file through an MQA-enabled DAC, you will get a 24-bit/192kHz file. If you are also using a software decoder like Tidal HiFi, Audirvana, or (soon) Roon, you can have the software decoder perform the first 'unfold'.
Click to expand...
 
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Thanks for the information and suggestions guys, especially @Nobski for that detailed post, that was exactly the kind of information I was after.

I did cough a bit when I clicked on your Gungir multibit link! A little bit out of the budget range I was initally looking at :D I was playing with the phone BT settings the other day and can turn it to LDAC, which was an improvement over Aptx, but on poking around in the developer settings and upping the bitrate to max quality, it certainly showed the limitations of the phone as a source! :o So yes, I can see now that's a non-starter and I am keen to maximise the quality, but I may have to begin at a slightly more modest starting point....

I assume you run the Virtuoso program on the Allodigi one (RPi)?
 
Freakbro said:
Thanks for the information and suggestions guys, especially @Nobski for that detailed post, that was exactly the kind of information I was after.

I did cough a bit when I clicked on your Gungir multibit link! A little bit out of the budget range I was initally looking at :D I was playing with the phone BT settings the other day and can turn it to LDAC, which was an improvement over Aptx, but on poking around in the developer settings and upping the bitrate to max quality, it certainly showed the limitations of the phone as a source! :o So yes, I can see now that's a non-starter and I am keen to maximise the quality, but I may have to begin at a slightly more modest starting point....

I assume you run the Virtuoso program on the Allodigi one (RPi)?
Click to expand...

Hello @Freakbro ,
Sorry for the delay getting back in the thread, very busy at work etc.

Ha-ha, yes the Gungir multibit has gone up a bit since I bought it.
One good thing with Schiit is that when they significantly improve a component you can upgrade to that at a cost rather than having equipment that slowly goes out of date, the latest is a new USB interface for the DAC. All their equipment is good value at all price points.

I tend to buy the best I can afford at the time then keep it ages, so 11 year old TV and i7 3770K based pc (although I would have upgraded that this year if not for the shortages).

Yes I run Volumio with Virtuoso on the Raspberry Pi with the Allo Digione Sig Hat and 2 power supplies, I am stroking my chin on upgrading the `clean and dirty side`power supply to the Allo Shanti linear power supply but no rush yet, all this gear can be a real money pit rabbit hole.

Using Volumio if I play my own high res files I can playback up to 192kHz / 24bit but the majority of my ripped music is CD quality flac files at 44.1kHz / 16bit.
On playback of Tidal through the above I get 44.1kHz / 24bit for masters and 44.1kHz / 16bit for the rest which I am happy with as I usually don`t play at too high a volume and have to listen carefully to tell much difference between these different bit rates, ymmv ?

If I was in your position now and depending on your budget I would maybe get an Allo Boss 2 Dac hat for $100 (aprox £72) and a raspberry pi 3B upwards to test the waters (other makes available lol) and enjoy the convenience of armchair music streaming. This will give you an upgrade path of sorts later on if you choose to go further.

You could also just get a RPi and play back via a headphone jack to RCA cable adapter which is how I started down my rabbit hole to see if you get on with Volumio etc. , other software is available (Moode...) but for integrated Tidal playback it seems to be the most straightforward, otherwise all in one music streamers would be the way to go in my opinion.

Have fun and let us know how you get on :)
 
I use a Meridian Explorer2, it works well with Android (USB Audio Player Pro)
You can probably pick up the Explorer2, 2nd hand quite cheaply.
 
cu3ed posted a thread in movies section - a video on tidal mqa expose, short sighted I thought, it disregards psychoacoustics.

I think mqa 96/24 sounds good, but if volumio is only offering 44.1/24 that's only (according to tidal) flac CD quality,so would be a significant limitation for me.
 
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