F1 2022 Car Launches

[Mesai]

Sorry but dream on.

Top teams will always remain top teams.

Merc and redbull had great cars last couple of seasons, the rules are a big change but as they are still using near enough same power trains etc, there will not be a massive step change in performance differential between teams.

So McLaren and Ferrari aren't top teams? They're prime examples of teams who followed the wrong path and fell down the order.

Teams have made substantial changes to both the PU and aero of the cars so there's every possibility for something to go wrong.

 

[Mr Jack]

So McLaren and Ferrari aren't top teams? They're prime examples of teams who followed the wrong path and fell down the order.

*cough* Williams *cough*

Kind of striking how in the time I've been watching F1 they've gone from the undisputed best car to regular backmarkers.

 

[Entai]

So McLaren and Ferrari aren't top teams? They're prime examples of teams who followed the wrong path and fell down the order.

Teams have made substantial changes to both the PU and aero of the cars so there's every possibility for something to go wrong.

The only changes to the engines this year is that they now run on E10, which will decrease power, and the FIA have mandated a few more standardised components are added to the engines fuel systems, and more sensors have been added.

There is also now a feeeze on engine development over the next few years, so most likely teams will make sure engines are less stressed than they have been, as any major issues cannot now be redeveloped and got around for next year onwards.

Worth noting here there is nothing that would ensure any drop in performance could be made up for, using means such as permitting a higher fuel flow rate in the event of a horsepower deficit.

So if teams find their engine is lower on power this year compared to others, there is nothing they can do about it for a few more years.

 

[Mesai]

*cough* Williams *cough*

Kind of striking how in the time I've been watching F1 they've gone from the undisputed best car to regular backmarkers.

Yea, they've never really recovered. There only saving grace has been Haas

I still remember watching Lotus fight for pole and podiums in the V8 era, which is pretty wild.

 

[Dup]

*cough* Williams *cough*

Kind of striking how in the time I've been watching F1 they've gone from the undisputed best car to regular backmarkers.

Their last race win was 10 years ago, then 8 years before that. Time really has marched on, I was 10 when I remember cheering on Hill with my Dad.

I'm hoping these regs bring more action and teams taking points from each other. I'm less bothered about the WDC & WCC now
I'm older, I just want to see good racing.

 

[Mesai]

The only changes to the engines this year is that they now run on E10, which will decrease power, and the FIA have mandated a few more standardised components are added to the engines fuel systems, and more sensors have been added.

There is also now a feeeze on engine development over the next few years, so most likely teams will make sure engines are less stressed than they have been, as any major issues cannot now be redeveloped and got around for next year onwards.

Worth noting here there is nothing that would ensure any drop in performance could be made up for, using means such as permitting a higher fuel flow rate in the event of a horsepower deficit.

So if teams find their engine is lower on power this year compared to others, there is nothing they can do about it for a few more years.

Both Ferrari and Merc said that the E10 change was pretty significant, and I can believe that given how these cars run on the absolute edge of efficiency and performance. They'll also be locking in as many performance changes as their risk tolerance will allow.

It should also be noted that the cars will drive differently under the new design, so packaging and software changes will be critical.

So many things could go wrong, but I wouldn't put money on Merc being the team who has a lot of those problems.

 

[Entai]

Both Ferrari and Merc said that the E10 change was pretty significant, and I can believe that given how these cars run on the absolute edge of efficiency and performance. They'll also be locking in as many performance changes as their risk tolerance will allow.

It should also be noted that the cars will drive differently under the new design, so packaging and software changes will be critical.

So many things could go wrong, but I wouldn't put money on Merc being the team who has a lot of those problems.

Yeah I have read Ferrari are going for the all or nothing approach with massively radical and daring changes to their ICE.

I am surprised anyone has done that, as all changes to the ICE are permanently homologated on March 1st, so if they find they have gone the wrong way, no changes allowed till 2025.

Merc having had the best engine for several years, have stuck with it although a different turbo setup has given them more power in dyno runs, but it is a small change in the grand scheme, so unlikely to decrease reliability below what they had previously.

 

[Mr Jack]

I am surprised anyone has done that, as all changes to the ICE are permanently homologated on March 1st, so if they find they have gone the wrong way, no changes allowed till 2025.

The engines aren't completely frozen they are allowed to make changes for reliability. It makes sense then to prioritise performance and figure you can fix the reliability over the next season and have an advantage for the three seasons to follow.

 

[Entai]

The engines aren't completely frozen they are allowed to make changes for reliability. It makes sense then to prioritise performance and figure you can fix the reliability over the next season and have an advantage for the three seasons to follow.

As i say ICE parts are homologated on march 1st

Nothing can be changed after that point except like for like parts.

Anything that an engine manufacturer wants to change relating to reliability or safety, has to be agreed by all other engine manufacturers before it can be altered from the original homologated part.

Edit:
Words changed to make clear all engine manufacturers have to agree any changes on reliability or safety grounds after homologation

 

[Mr Jack]

As i say ICE parts are homologated on march 1st

Nothing can be changed after that point except like for like parts.

Anything that an engine manufacturer wants to change relating to reliability or safety, has to be agreed by all other engine manufacturers before it can be altered from the original homologated part.

This is what the rule says (Appendix 5.1 of the current regs):

A manufacturer may apply to the FIA during the course of the homologation period to carry
out modifications to the homologated Power Unit elements for the sole purposes of
reliability, safety, cost saving, or minimal incidental changes permitted in 5.4 below.

Applications must be made in writing to the FIA Technical Department and must provide all
necessary supporting information including, where appropriate, clear evidence of failures.

The FIA will circulate the correspondence to all Power Unit Manufacturers for comment.
If the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion, that these changes are acceptable, they will
confirm to the Power Unit Manufacturer concerned that they may be carried out.

Wherever practical, such requests must be submitted at least 14 days before the requested
date of homologation.

The procedure and associated document templates that must be used by the Power Unit
Manufacturers for their requests are available in the Appendix of the Regulations.​

It does not require agreement from other engine manufacturers, only comment. As we've seen before during homologation periods the teams will take advantage of this, and those reliability gains will lead to performance improvements.

 

[Entai]

This is what the rule says (Appendix 5.1 of the current regs):

A manufacturer may apply to the FIA during the course of the homologation period to carry
out modifications to the homologated Power Unit elements for the sole purposes of
reliability, safety, cost saving, or minimal incidental changes permitted in 5.4 below.

Applications must be made in writing to the FIA Technical Department and must provide all
necessary supporting information including, where appropriate, clear evidence of failures.

The FIA will circulate the correspondence to all Power Unit Manufacturers for comment.
If the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion, that these changes are acceptable, they will
confirm to the Power Unit Manufacturer concerned that they may be carried out.

Wherever practical, such requests must be submitted at least 14 days before the requested
date of homologation.

The procedure and associated document templates that must be used by the Power Unit
Manufacturers for their requests are available in the Appendix of the Regulations.​

It does not require agreement from other engine manufacturers, only comment. As we've seen before during homologation periods the teams will take advantage of this, and those reliability gains will lead to performance improvements.

Yes the other engine manufacturers have to comment.

But if any of them comment that the proposed change is performance related, and nothing to do with reliability or safety, do you honestly think the FIA will agree the change?


You know as well as I do, none of the manufacturers will allow another even a millimetre of an advantage.

They will fight tooth and nail to prevent another manufacturer gaining any advantage

 

[MissChief]

I’d think the FIA would want to know why the other engine manufacturers think it will be performance enhancing, otherwise any and all updates would just be instantly denied.

 

[Mr Jack]

Yes the other engine manufacturers have to comment.

But if any of them comment that the proposed change is performance related, and nothing to do with reliability or safety, do you honestly think the FIA will agree the change?

I think the FIA will take any comments from other teams with the handful of salt they deserve. But remember as well that pure reliability changes are often also performance changes since they allow the engine to be run more aggressively.

But, going back to my original point: these rules mean that if you turn up with an unreliable but fast engine you can fix it whereas if you turn up with a slow but reliable engine you can't. That means it makes sense to err on the side of fast instead of reliable and assume you can fix the problems over the first homologated season.

 

[Entai]

I am pretty sure the FIA will be heavily leaning towards not allowing any changes unless it can be proved beyond all doubt the change will only rectify a reliability issue.

After the last year, and also with Ross Brawn in charge, you honestly believe the FIA will allow any changes that will cause any kind of controversy?

 

[Entai]

I’d think the FIA would want to know why the other engine manufacturers think it will be performance enhancing, otherwise any and all updates would just be instantly denied.

Exactly why the FIA are asking the experts for their comments.

The FIA will have their own independent experts I am sure, but the other manufacturers will have way more in depth knowledge, so its only responsible for the FIA to take advantage of that knowledge base.

 

[bayo000]

Arguably even the reliability point is a performance upgrade. Just look at last season and Mercedes. Would they have won the constructor championship if they used the same number of engines as Red Bull? Think both RBs used 4 units each, Lewis 5 and Valteri 6 units rather than the 3 units they should use per season.

Penalties for taking an extra engines should definitely be increased. As well as the current grid penalty there should be a 5 points deduction, maybe just for the constructor points as the driver is already penalised by the grid drop.

 

[englishpremier]

Arguably even the reliability point is a performance upgrade. Just look at last season and Mercedes. Would they have won the constructor championship if they used the same number of engines as Red Bull? Think both RBs used 4 units each, Lewis 5 and Valteri 6 units rather than the 3 units they should use per season.

Penalties for taking an extra engines should definitely be increased. As well as the current grid penalty there should be a 5 points deduction, maybe just for the constructor points as the driver is already penalised by the grid drop.

In a season where you don't have a driver/car that is 30s faster than the most of the field over a racing distance, then starting at the back of the grid is enough of a penalty. The problem more recently has been the midfield teams and 2nd drivers being utterly pants.

 

[Mr Jack]

Alpine stream live now:

Mostly ads for the A110 for now.

 

[GhostWKD]

Yeah I have read Ferrari are going for the all or nothing approach with massively radical and daring changes to their ICE.

I am surprised anyone has done that, as all changes to the ICE are permanently homologated on March 1st, so if they find they have gone the wrong way, no changes allowed till 2025.

Could be wrong but I'm fairly sure Alpine have openly stated they're doing the same and risking reliability for performance improvements, as others have said probably because reliability can be remedied later if needed

 

[chrismscotland]

That Alpine looks nice in the blue/pink combo!