F1 Testing 2015: Week 1 Jerez

englishpremier said:
I don't the engine they will race with can have any tokens used on it otherwise it will have be homologated then that's it for the season.

Presumably if they want to use their tokens during the season they will have to start with last year's engine then bring in the 2015 engine later.
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That was pretty much the point of the rule, now they can use the tokens whenever they like. Only when they've used up to the max allowance does the engine get locked. They screwed the pooch on the rules by not specifically adding a date. What irks me is, when the rules intention was so blindingly obvious and it was clearly an oversight to not add a pre Australia date it was mental to change the rule completely rather than continue with the intention the rule always had. Everyone up till the challenge knew what the rule intended. So they changed the rule rather than the specific wording, nuts.

The current change for Honda is now that the average tokens not used by the other three teams Honda will also be allowed. So if, from what I recall a total of 32 points, Mercedes use 20 tokens, Ferrari use 27, Renault use 24 then you would have an average unused tokens of (12 + 5 + 8)/3 = 8(rounded) and Honda will be allowed 8 extra tokens this year after their engine is set for the start of the year... an even more ridiculous take on the rule.

Effectively as of a couple months ago Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault were allowed to use 32 tokens out of 66 tokens that cover the entire engine. But Honda are allowed to effectively change 66 tokens as they will make a new engine. Now because the other three can still only use 32 tokens but can use them at any time... now Honda will get extra tokens to use just because the others may use them later in the season.
 
smr said:
Sometimes times can be a good indicator , look at Brawn.
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Two things there. What impressed people was how quickly it surpassed the speed of the other cars who had been testing for weeks, not the speed in itself.

And they had zero sponsors, so at the time there were debates about them running underweight. Of course, those theories were proved very wrong, but still, no-one really knew for sure the true pace until Melbourne.
 
this_is_gav said:
I don't even know why people are looking at times.

Back in the 90s teams set times deliberately underweight as a means to attracting sponsors. Whether those sort of tactics are used now or not I've no idea, but it demonstrates how little we know about the configuration these cars are in. Engines modes (heck, even engine versions), fuel loads, tyres (we generally know the compound, but not their age), how hard they're pushing, etc and many more factors.

Mercedes sandbagged their way throughout testing last year, yet when they got to Melbourne they could have lapped the field at least once if they'd wanted to.
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http://www.gpupdate.net/en/testresu...t-bahrain-international-circuit-9-april-2014/

Mercedes/Hamilton 1.4 seconds clear. They were fast through pretty much all of testing. People have different programs on different days, crash a car, break a wing, do long heavy runs or whatever but pretty much every single day outside of the first 2 days a Mercedes engine was running fastest by 1-2 seconds(unless against another Mercedes). When Merc the team wanted to do a fast testing day they also topped the time sheets. The Merc engines pace was exceptionally clear by the third day of testing and the second and third test completely confirmed it.

You know what is more irksome than people taking times as proof of things, it's people who post complaining about people taking times as proof of things when effectively no one has done that at all.

My posts on Ferrari have been saying they show a clear move up from THEIR OWN TIMES LAST YEAR, and that compared to them they are miles up. Also Sauber spent the entire year and last years testing a few seconds down on Ferrari, they are no longer a few seconds down on Ferrari. I haven't stated Sauber HAVE caught up with Ferrari, I've said the signs are encouraging.

I don't know if I've seen anyone claim a time means anything, they are just signs. Last year Mercedes ran way more than everyone else and were consistently top of time sheets once engines were turned up... get to the season, best engine and very reliable.

Most of the things you could infer from testing last year were shown to be pretty indicative of the state of things throughout the season. Sauber struggled badly, yup, Ferrari way of Mercedes engine pace, yup, Renault unreliable and dodgy, yup, Mercedes the best looking car(handling, pace, everything) yup, Williams looked to have made a huge step up from 2013, yup, Mclaren looked a bit crap, yup.

90% of what people inferred from testing last year is exactly how the season played out. That is the other thing, people posting that times mean nothing then making claims about how those cars looked last year but being wrong.

Mercedes engine/car sandbagged, it absolutely did not, Ferrari looked good in testing last year, it absolutely did not.
 
Mclaren done for the test due to fuel pump being out and they won't get it changed in time. Kimi beat Vettel's existing fastest lap of the test by a tenth or so and unless Merc decide to do a fast run at the end... which they may or may not do, we'll probably see that stand.

It's more than possible Merc have done a faster "lap" but we wouldn't know it. too many ways to do it, like start half way around the track, do a slow start to a normal lap, speed up midway through, slow down half way through the next lap. They get a real lap time but it would show up as two slow laps on the timing charts.

Mclaren certainly improved and managed some faster runs but they still haven't gone very fast and haven't done any lengthy stints. I think it's not as bad as it could have been, but not as good either. They hit just under 20 laps a day average, 30-40 was probably a good target for the first test.

Kimi getting into the 1:20's again, Magnussen had the fastest lap last year with a 1:23.3 and with Merc beating them by 1.5seconds in qualifying by Australia (and in general having that 1-1.5second gap) I would think Merc last year could have hit a 1:21.8-1:22. I do think the lap times have come down a decent amount, Ferrari look to have moved forward a fair bit. They are 4 seconds up themselves over their own fastest lap last year which I think is the more obvious sign they've gained. The question will be how much have Merc gained in comparison. The fastest laps each team achieves in the next two tests will be interesting.

I really do get the feeling Ferrari have moved significantly forward, partially because Sauber have also jumped way way forward by the looks of things. Sauber's own time is 8 seconds ahead of their best at Jerez last year, Ferrari moved 4 seconds forward.
 
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drunkenmaster said:
It's more than possible Merc have done a faster "lap" but we wouldn't know it. too many ways to do it, like start half way around the track, do a slow start to a normal lap, speed up midway through, slow down half way through the next lap. They get a real lap time but it would show up as two slow laps on the timing charts.
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I was thinking of this, but then you'd see the times through the fastest sectors.
 
Ryan-3 said:
I was thinking of this, but then you'd see the times through the fastest sectors.
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The super sneaky way of working out great track times is to decide your own three sectors same way as the laps, midpoint to midpoint, slow start/end of sectors, then add up your three sectors, that would mean outside of the team really no one can put the numbers together.

Honestly I don't think they'd try to hide it that hard, they didn't much care last year. Just different teams are testing different things, Sauber had maybe the worst brake by wire so are testing rear locking/more aggressive harvesting more than anyone here so they lock up more than anyone. Merc want to focus on long runs so aren't really doing qualy pace, Ferrari do want to focus on ultimate pace so that is where their focus is. At some point over the three tests there was a time when teams did 3-4 lap runs and tried to do their best times and Merc weren't that cautious last year and stuck out like a sore thumb when they did.

Another simple thing is with 7-8 hours of testing reporters would have to watch the screens and write down every single sector and add up all the best ones which they probably haven't bothered doing.
 
Quartz said:
Ferrari ahead of Mercedes; who would have thought it? Alonso must be kicking himself.
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It is almost certainly a mistake to believe that the lap times in this test represent the ultimate pace of the cars. Mercedes easily got the best of this test with the highest number of laps on every day; timesheets mean little compared to that.
 
Quartz said:
Ferrari ahead of Mercedes; who would have thought it? Alonso must be kicking himself.
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Alonso may kick himself but, he can do it with a diamond encrusted pair of boots that he could only afford since signing a new contract. Who knows, I don't believe that Ferrari are ahead of Merc, just had different testing goals. As it stands we don't know what performance updates were running on Merc's cars this week, it could have been all the reliability/weight saving/other improvements and they'll throw in something that adds 50bhp next test and then decide if they need it for the start of the season. The other option being saving that upgrade for later in the season because they think with a couple tweaks they can get 70bhp out of it instead or something.

The other thing is, Ferrari has done several short stint runs on soft tires, most of the Merc running was on harder tires, their medium runs have been fast and I'm not sure they've done any runs on soft tires though it's hard to tell with the level of information available. Mostly Merc appear to be doing longer stints which you expect to be slower.

What I think the numbers show is that Ferrari have made a huge step forward, both engine and aero judging by various people saying it's handling a lot better and the general design being more balanced. Sauber as well have made an even bigger step forward and such a step coming from everything but the engine would seem unlikely.

I think Ferrari are WAY stronger than they were last year but that is a far cry from saying they are ahead of Merc. They most likely just showed their pace first.

EDIT:- I think it's worth highlighting how well Sauber have done. If they were both doing relatively similar power levels and fuel loads that is very impressive for a team with a way smaller budget and a driver line up of Vettel/Kimi vs Nasr/Ericsson. I think 1 second behind the Ferrari's is exceptional, particularly with how terrible the team was last year.
 
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Current laps are
Merc 117
Sauber 112
Ferrari 106
TR 97
Williams 73
RBR 64
Lotus 53
Mclaren 35


Merc 243
Ferrari 218
Renault 161
Honda 35

Total across 4 days
Merc 987
Ferrari 718
Renault 517
Honda 79

Number of laps by team this test

Merc 515
Sauber 381
TR 352
Ferrari 345
Williams 278
Lotus 190
RBR 165
Mclaren 79

*some of the numbers are slightly off as various sources report marginally different numbers, mostly due to non finished laps, some count them, some don't, so they are a couple out some places.


Round up of last years numbers from autosport
Distance by team

1. Team Laps Kms
2. Mercedes 309 1368
3. Ferrari 251 1111
4. McLaren 245 1084
5. Williams 175 774
6. Sauber 163 721
7. Force India 146 646
8. Caterham 76 336
9. Toro Rosso 54 239
10. Marussia 30 132
11. Red Bull 21 92

Distance by engine manufacturer

Engine Laps Kms
1. Mercedes 875 3874
2. Ferrari 444 1966
3. Renault 151 668
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So Merc the team did way more laps, merc the engine didn't do that many more due to the loss of Mclaren. Between them Merc, Williams and Lotus/FI did 350laps more but lost the 250 from Mclaren.

Sauber, TR, Lotus, RBR all increased significantly, Mclaren got a boo boo, but that was to be expected.

So even without Caterham and Marussia at the test Ferrari and Renault managed way way way more laps. Again not really unexpected, while "new" engines they are still far more experienced with them and most of the cars are evolutions rather than revolutions so didn't face as many technical kinks.

The Mercedes engine isn't seeing the same level of advantage in testing as it had last year.

Somewhat surprised Williams did more laps than last year, less surprised they only did half of what Merc did. They seemed a bit quiet all test, not much news, can't recall them breaking down on track nor posting any interesting numbers from longer runs.
 
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