Soldato
If the car flips upside down and sets on fire how's the driver going to get out with the current halo layout as well? Looks too narrow to get out through the sides.
F1 Testing 2016: Week 2 Barcelona (1st - 4th)
- Thread starter Shimmy
- Start date
If the car flips upside down and sets on fire how's the driver going to get out with the current halo layout as well? Looks too narrow to get out through the sides.
I don't think a driver can easily get out of a current car if its upside down either, especially with the newly increased side hight on the cockpit.
Thats why the fireproofing is so considerable on their clothing.
Thats why the fireproofing is so considerable on their clothing.
Last edited:
Soldato
If it does have to come in to effect, and it looks obviously very likely, then do you think the FIA would let drivers choose whether to have it or not? Hamilton raised the point of "if there's an option I won't use it"... or do you think it'd be mandatory for all drivers - knowing how motorsport councils run I'd guess it'd be the latter...
Soldato
Looking at the halo again on Ted's Notebook - looks like they would actually be able to get out easily enough if it was upside down.
Soldato
I just can't get my head around the fact that F1 cars will have what looks like giant flip flops over their heads - aesthetically it's so absurdly ugly. For all the intelligence and money at their disposal I can't understand why something better looking but still as safe can't be designed - I can't think of it but I'm surprised this is about thee only concept which has been drafted up.
Interesting take by Ted. The mechanics can't reach the steering wheel to steer the car when it's reversed into the garage.
My mind immediately thought that if mechanics can't reach the wheel, how easily can the medical crew reach the harness buckles in case of emergencies?
My mind immediately thought that if mechanics can't reach the wheel, how easily can the medical crew reach the harness buckles in case of emergencies?
What I don't get is that WEC actually went to enclosed canopies FOR safety yet F1 are saying that they can't do that FOR SAFETY REASONS? Does Not Compute.
I've yet to hear of a WEC crash where the enclosed cockpit has hindered or even prevented reaching the driver and, in most cases, the Driver has been able to exit unaided.
I doubt an accident like this:
would be something you can walk away from in a F1 car. The canopy becomes part of the crash structure.
This one is also pretty high speed and, again, I doubt an F1 driver would be uninjured.
To my mind, a canopy, written into the regulations for, say, 2018 is the only way they'll manage to do it without causing other issues. It's relatively easy to make something that's immensely strong in several directions other than one or to make a quick release mechanism that can be activated from outside the car. They already deal with Electrical power that could throw a mechanic or marshal clean off their feet.
Mandate a canopy for 2018 with minimum dimensions, mandate a specific release mechanism and even mandate a spec aircon unit that must be running at all times if they're worried about different teams doing it differently.
I've yet to hear of a WEC crash where the enclosed cockpit has hindered or even prevented reaching the driver and, in most cases, the Driver has been able to exit unaided.
I doubt an accident like this:
This one is also pretty high speed and, again, I doubt an F1 driver would be uninjured.
To my mind, a canopy, written into the regulations for, say, 2018 is the only way they'll manage to do it without causing other issues. It's relatively easy to make something that's immensely strong in several directions other than one or to make a quick release mechanism that can be activated from outside the car. They already deal with Electrical power that could throw a mechanic or marshal clean off their feet.
Mandate a canopy for 2018 with minimum dimensions, mandate a specific release mechanism and even mandate a spec aircon unit that must be running at all times if they're worried about different teams doing it differently.
WEC P1 and P2 canopies are much much wider and larger than anything that would be fitted to an F1 car. There is in theory enough room inside a P1 or P2 for 2 people in the cockpit, which is why the drivers seats are always offset. A whole F1 canopy would be about the size of just a single door on a prototype.
Enclosed cockpits come with a lot of other issues other than access and safety. They need air conditioning or some sort of venting, they also need to have anti misting or fogging. Then there's wiper blades for the rain. The canopies on F1 would be much smaller and have a much more aggressive curvature than anything else in Motorsport or aeroplane technology. Heavily curved glass or plastic also plays havoc with diffusion of light, refraction, glare and depth perception.
The safety concerns are actually pretty low down on the list of issues with implementing canopies in F1.
Enclosed cockpits come with a lot of other issues other than access and safety. They need air conditioning or some sort of venting, they also need to have anti misting or fogging. Then there's wiper blades for the rain. The canopies on F1 would be much smaller and have a much more aggressive curvature than anything else in Motorsport or aeroplane technology. Heavily curved glass or plastic also plays havoc with diffusion of light, refraction, glare and depth perception.
The safety concerns are actually pretty low down on the list of issues with implementing canopies in F1.
Last edited:
So how to fighter jets manage the distortion? And surely they fly on bad weather without having wipers? Rain-X and other water dispersing agents are pretty good now although I agree a car burning oil could be an issue.
Aircon/Venting could be written into the regulations easily enough. Anti-fog is doable too. Even use the same stuff Ford use in their front windscreens. The Ultra fine mesh to keep the canopy clear. none of these issues are insurmountable.
An F-16 Canopy has some huge curvature over a short distance.
http://images.fineartamerica.com/im...of-the-canopy-on-a-f-16a-ramon-van-opdorp.jpg
I'm sure you've all seen the FIA canopy test footage:
I'm not convinced a 'Halo' type device will do what a well engineered 'proper' canopy will.
They're generally made from a high grade polycarbonate which helps a lot. With lower grade polycarbonate the refractive index changes substantially, which causes the distortion.
And they're really not cheap. Don't know for the F16, but the canopy for an F22 is around $180'000. That is just for the canopy, not the frame.
Also about 2cm thick, not light, only made by one company and is made by fusion bonding 2x1cm thick polycarbonate sheets in a proprietary process.
F16 canopy is 3 separate bonded layers. Polycarbonate layer, polyurethane and an outer layer of acrylic. It's thinner than the F22's but it's also a 40 year old design.
Oh, and there's gold in them too. Helps with glare and more importantly for them, protects the aircrew from radiation from their radar and jammers and most importantly for them, prevents the incoming radar bouncing around the internal space of the cockpit. Couple of things that are not so important in F1.
Ummm... It appears that my geek is showing.... Sorry...
Geeks welcome. 
I used it as an example of what's possible with the curvature in a small space. I'm sure something akin to the F22's canopy would potentially be even stronger using more modern materials. F1 teams would happily spend £5 million for an extra 0.05 on a lap. if it's part of the regulations they won't have any choice.
I used it as an example of what's possible with the curvature in a small space. I'm sure something akin to the F22's canopy would potentially be even stronger using more modern materials. F1 teams would happily spend £5 million for an extra 0.05 on a lap. if it's part of the regulations they won't have any choice.That jet canopy is huge compared to the size of ones needed for F1. If you placed that canopy onto an F1 car now, the front of the canopy would be out over the nose, maybe even as far as the front wing. It's also about twice as wide as the whole F1 cockpit/nose area.
I'm not disputing that canopies work, I'm saying they will need to be a lot smaller for F1, and in that reduction in size lies issues with angles of curvature and strength, etc. Also, jets don't tend to not take hairpins at 30mph or sit stationary on a grid, so solve the issue of rain on the screen through much higher speeds.
The FIA have tested lots of designs, but not one F1 sized/shaped/compatible canopy. Withholding my opinion that they are just idiots (they are), I imagine this is because its not as simple to make one as we think.
In my view canopies could be done, and is the best solution to the issues they are trying to solve, but it will require a complete overhaul of the fundamental deisign of an F1 car, and completely change what the formula is.
I'm not disputing that canopies work, I'm saying they will need to be a lot smaller for F1, and in that reduction in size lies issues with angles of curvature and strength, etc. Also, jets don't tend to not take hairpins at 30mph or sit stationary on a grid, so solve the issue of rain on the screen through much higher speeds.
The FIA have tested lots of designs, but not one F1 sized/shaped/compatible canopy. Withholding my opinion that they are just idiots (they are), I imagine this is because its not as simple to make one as we think.
In my view canopies could be done, and is the best solution to the issues they are trying to solve, but it will require a complete overhaul of the fundamental deisign of an F1 car, and completely change what the formula is.
Soldato
Not a chance in hell due to it having a massive effect on aerodynamics.
Soldato
All this canopy\halo to me is going overboard. I agree with Hamilton and Hulk they're not needed.
But I never thought the nannie state would come to F1
But I never thought the nannie state would come to F1
Soldato
I'm all for making sports safer, especially motor racing as there is an inherent risk or serious injury or even death... But i think there is also a line where it starts to change the fundamentals of the sport and I think they seem to be treadng that line with this.
It hasn't been the greatest time in motor racing recently and the 'freak accidents' have been particularly shocking as they have caused deaths, including one of my favourite racing drivers, but I get the feeling this is a typical knee jerk reaction from the FIA and had those accidents been spread out further I don't think they would be even exploring these options.
It is open wheel racing, should F1 decide to go the way of changing that I think it would be to its detriment, the fact that there would be non-FIA series which didn't follow suit I think would make it look worse.
It hasn't been the greatest time in motor racing recently and the 'freak accidents' have been particularly shocking as they have caused deaths, including one of my favourite racing drivers, but I get the feeling this is a typical knee jerk reaction from the FIA and had those accidents been spread out further I don't think they would be even exploring these options.
It is open wheel racing, should F1 decide to go the way of changing that I think it would be to its detriment, the fact that there would be non-FIA series which didn't follow suit I think would make it look worse.
Man of Honour
A closed cockpit doesn't mean it isn't open wheel racing.
Soldato
Yes I know, but an open wheel car is also typically open top and has a single seat etc... It's what people expect, it's what people have come to know and associate with it. I'm sure there are examples of series where there is a differing layout but I'd say that it wouldn't be the norm for 'open-wheel' or 'single seater' or 'formula' racing.
In my view it would be a pretty big change to start putting cockpits on these racing cars, as has been said it would also mean there would be many other additions that would need to be added to accomodate them.
The problem is that no matter what the FIA chose, once they have started on this path there is no way back. They cannot ever be seen to be making the sport less safe, so once we have any sort of head protection, no matter how stupid or ugly, that's it, we will have head protection forever.
Soldato
Yea exactly, this'll be a change that'll likely change all of the FIA series from the fundamentals.