Fat tax

[Freefaller]

I'm not saying it's one that I follow extensively, it's just a good way of cutting out crap from the diet. I'm not a huge fan of dairy - whilst I love cheese, I eat it as a treat from time to time, than something I specifically look out for in my diet.

Unfortunately for every study produced there will be just as many studies extolling the virtues of the opposite. So rather than turning this into a tit-for-tat study vs study debate I'll just go through some of the things that my extensive, albeit amateur compared to the numerous doctorates and experts out there, research and understanding leads me to.

Modern dairy is highly processed - though, give me fresh unpasturised/unhomoginsed milk and I'm all over it - I LOVE it. However, since I do not drink/use milk enough I no longer buy farm milk (which you can buy - I urge you to try it, it's LOVELY!) as it's not worth it. I do eat a bit of cheese from time to time - it's my weakness, I love it! (I'm French, what can I say?) however, then again the better cheeses are the unpasturised ones, though goats cheese is even less of an issue for you. Whilst you're right we have developed to eat dairy, a lot of people still suffer issues as our journey to evolving for bovine milk is still not complete - and many people whether they realise it or not do suffer intestinal inflammation when ingesting dairy.

That's by the by - I can accept your argument on dairy - but you do not however, need it in your diet as you can get all the nutrients from alternative sources - furthermore, the pasturisation process removes most of the benefits of dairy - so effectively you're just drinking water with fat, sugar and protein molecules in solution - which isn't in itself bad, but also there are far better things to be eating.

I agree 100% with you, that the paleo diet really is untenable in modern western society - our food chain doesn't support that diet that easily - however, that is also down to the result of increased food manufacturing and processing - mainly down to supply and demand though I would suppose.

Whether or not our bodies have adapted yet,to fully eat grains is for an expert to argue, but I still on occasion eat rice (white or brown) but I prefer wild rice, which botanically speaking is actually a grass rather than a grain.

However, again I agree with you, we should embrace modern manufacturing and farming - after all we are after evolving aren't we? So I'm sure our bodies will develop to need and cope with an increasing number of foods.

I also agree about a balanced diet - however, I generally eat little to no refined carbs/sugars and foods, I eat pasta and rice on occasion as I do cous cous and potatoes. Not because they're bad, per se, they just do not suit my lifestyle. I eat a lot of fish and meat, as well as my own body weight in vegetables and sweet potatoes, wild rice, and a good selection of fruits. However, my nutritional knowledge and need is not what the average joe would know - and it is also very specific for me. However, I'm a health freak who spends too long reading research books and visiting medical friends in their labs to learn more about this stuff. A lot of them agree with you, a lot of them say "it;s inconclusive". So there isn't any 1 solution for everyone.

That said, I still firmly stand by the removal of heavily processed and refined foods from our diets. Those foods are bad to have as part of a daily diet, they create insulin spikes, and poor dietary profiles as well as IMO, just not enjoyable to eat, and far too high in salt, additives and preservatives.

Yes, that is an ultimate "perfect" world - I understand that cheap mass produced food is undoubtedly necessary, however, if they change the rules to allow for cheaper good quality foods instead of promoting these cheaper foods we'd be in a better place. When I lived in the Middle East/Mediterranean, I've never been in better health - maybe owing to the sunshine, and seeing beautiful people all around me - however, the foods were also all "clean". Generally home made, minimal processing, and it DID include breads and grains. To me, it was quite a clear contrast - and what I strive for whilst living in the UK.

 

[No1newts]

Not as bad, but neither are great for your body.

So what does your child eat?

I'm genuinely curious here not trolling.

My own son is 18 month and every meal is made fresh, no package meal garbage or chocolate etc but meat is a staple of any diet isn't it? What exactly do you mean by dairy?

 

[Nitefly]

It's always amusing the read these longer threads, and by read I of course mean read the first and last page only.

Always heads towards pettyone-upmanship.

With regards to diet, the proof is in the pudding. I wouldn't take dietry advice from someone unless their psychique was good.

My current diet would probably make half of you cry.

 

[Cupra]

i smoked from age 18 until 32. Tax (and inflation) on fags went up steadily year in and year out. I didn't quit because of the price, i quit because i wanted to.

Taxing stuff like this is just a BS smoke screen. £1.20 instead of £1 ooooh scary....

Educate the freaking kids at school, dump a useless dead subject like French and make/dedicate more hours for Home economics / food science.

breakfast and dinner clubs, teach the freaking kids that have "bad" parents what good food is. In turn they will teach their parents. Crazy but it works.

then in 25 years this bs fake smokescreen problem is halved
.

Best reply so far.

Im all for this

 

[MrMoonX]

So what does your child eat?

I'm genuinely curious here not trolling.

My own son is 18 month and every meal is made fresh, no package meal garbage or chocolate etc but meat is a staple of any diet isn't it? What exactly do you mean by dairy?

meat isnt a staple of any diet, especially not a vegan/veggie one lol

dairy is milk, eggs, butter, cheese etc. basically vegans dont eat anything that comes from animals, yep its that simple. Its served me well for 15 years, and thats the way we decided to bring up our children, hopefully when they are old enough to make their own decisions they will continue the healthy vegan lifestyle.

 

[Freefaller]

Eggs are not dairy.

 

[Judgeneo]

People should be educated on cooking more.

In cooking lessons in school, the healthiest thing I remember learning to make was toad in the hole, pretty much everything else was cakes and desserts. Now I've been cooking for myself for a few years, I find it quite easy to eat relatively healthily and cheaply, but there is a lot more I still could learn.

Teach people to cook, and they will eat better.

Educate the freaking kids at school, dump a useless dead subject like French and make/dedicate more hours for Home economics / food science.

breakfast and dinner clubs, teach the freaking kids that have "bad" parents what good food is. In turn they will teach their parents. Crazy but it works.

then in 25 years this bs fake smokescreen problem is halved.

Hear hear.

 

[elmarko]

Hear hear.

I think most people already know how to diet & eat healthy - they just don't want to because they are addicted to high fat & sugar saturated foods.

Also, simply knowing for certain how to be healthy doesn't make people healthy - the knowledge doesn't always feed through to change behaviour.

Short term hedonists will always pick the poor choice for short term gain regardless of anything else.

We need to accept the reality that everybody is different, some will be able to control food intake, some will be able to plan ahead & understand the long term gain - others will not.

To resolve the problem we need to attack it from multiple angles - food education for those it's effective for, reducing the relative cost of healthier foods & for those we are unwilling to change their diet we need to reduce the average sugar content/increase the average nutritional value of popular meals to reduce the damage caused to the rest.

For example, everybody knows that having unprotected sex will result in a kid eventually - the difference is if that information feeds through & alters behaviour (it does for some kids & not others) - (example from RSA talk on time perspective), the same understanding of human behaviour needs to be applied here.

 

[Glaucus]

I didn't say the Paleo Diet was low fat, you are assuming things again. It is, according to many dieticians, unbalanced however as it eliminates several food groups that supply essential minerals and vitamins.

What food groups.
It doesn't negate any vitamins or minerals.
It cuts out refined carbs. All veg etc is still available, just no refined carbs and no processed crap.
It doesn't restrict all dairy either, dairy is a grey area and up for the user. All though all diets should be up to the user to tapper towards their body, lifestyle and responses.

And I didnt assume, we were talkin about low fat and you said paleo might do that.

And rather than posting newspaper articles that are usually rubbish shall we see what's been published.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22262579

Available evidence lends weak support in favor and little against the notion that lean meat, fish, vegetables, tubers, and fruit can be effective in the prevention and treatment of common Western diseases. There are no obvious risks with avoiding dairy products, margarine, oils, refined sugar, and cereal grains, which provide 70% or more of the dietary intake in northern European populations. If stroke, coronary heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and cancer are preventable by dietary changes, an ancestral-like diet may provide an appropriate template.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139123

Most impressively, randomized controlled trials have begun to confirm the value of hunter-gatherer diets in some high-risk groups, even as compared with routinely recommended diets. Much more research needs to be done, but the past quarter century has proven the interest and heuristic value, if not yet the ultimate validity, of the model.

The Paleolithic group were as satiated as the Mediterranean group but consumed less energy per day (5.8 MJ/day vs. 7.6 MJ/day, Paleolithic vs. Mediterranean, p = 0.04). Consequently, the quotients of mean change in satiety during meal and mean consumed energy from food and drink were higher in the Paleolithic group (p = 0.03). Also, there was a strong trend for greater Satiety Quotient for energy in the Paleolithic group (p = 0.057). Leptin decreased by 31% in the Paleolithic group and by 18% in the Mediterranean group with a trend for greater relative decrease of leptin in the Paleolithic group. Relative changes in leptin and changes in weight and waist circumference correlated significantly in the Paleolithic group (p < 0.001) but not in the Mediterranean group. Changes in leptin receptor and free leptin index were not significant.
CONCLUSIONS:
A Paleolithic diet is more satiating per calorie than a Mediterranean-like diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19604407

Study participants had on average a diabetes duration of 9 years, a mean HbA1c of 6,6% units by Mono-S standard and were usually treated with metformin alone (3 subjects) or metformin in combination with a sulfonylurea (3 subjects) or a thiazolidinedione (3 subjects). Mean average dose of metformin was 1031 mg per day. Compared to the diabetes diet, the Paleolithic diet resulted in lower mean values of HbA1c (-0.4% units, p = 0.01), triacylglycerol (-0.4 mmol/L, p = 0.003), diastolic blood pressure (-4 mmHg, p = 0.03), weight (-3 kg, p = 0.01), BMI (-1 kg/m2, p = 0.04) and waist circumference (-4 cm, p = 0.02), and higher mean values of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (+0.08 mmol/L, p = 0.03). The Paleolithic diet was mainly lower in cereals and dairy products, and higher in fruits, vegetables, meat and eggs, as compared with the Diabetes diet. Further, the Paleolithic diet was lower in total energy, energy density, carbohydrate, dietary glycemic load, saturated fatty acids and calcium, and higher in unsaturated fatty acids, dietary cholesterol and several vitamins. Dietary GI was slightly lower in the Paleolithic diet (GI = 50) than in the Diabetic diet (GI = 55).
CONCLUSION:
Over a 3-month study period, a Paleolithic diet improved glycemic control and several cardiovascular risk factors compared to a Diabetes diet in patients with type 2 diabetes.

And on the other hand such diets can be low in Vit D (all though that applies to most people as its based on aunlight and we are outside less and cover up more. i think im right in syaing other than fortified foods, eggs and oily fish is about the only natural sources) and calcium(if you are diary free, this is mainly down to an individuals tolerance). Bone broth is used for calcium but can be high in lead and high fish diet can be high in other toxicants. All though fish intoxicants have been revised along the years in a downward trend. A bit like eggs and cholestrol.

The preparation and consumption of bone broth is being increasingly recommended to patients, for example as part of the gut and psychology syndrome (GAPS) diet for autism, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, dyslexia, dyspraxia, depression and schizophrenia, and as part of the paleolithic diet. However, bones are known to sequester the heavy metal lead, contamination with which is widespread throughout the modern environment. Such sequestered lead can then be mobilised from the bones. We therefore hypothesised that bone broth might carry a risk of being contaminated with lead. A small, blinded, controlled study of lead concentrations in three different types of organic chicken broth showed that such broths do indeed contain several times the lead concentration of the water with which the broth is made. In particular, broth made from skin and cartilage taken off the bone once the chicken had been cooked with the bones in situ, and chicken-bone broth, were both found to have markedly high lead concentrations, of 9.5 and 7.01μgL(-1), respectively (compared with a control value for tap water treated in the same way of 0.89μgL(-1)). In view of the dangers of lead consumption to the human body, we recommend that doctors and nutritionists take the risk of lead contamination into consideration when advising patients about bone broth diets.

As I've said before, much more reserch is needed. But you seem to throw you towel in without even knowing much about it.

 

[Judgeneo]

I think most people already know how to diet & eat healthy - they just don't want to because they are addicted to high fat & sugar saturated foods.

I think most people know they should eat healthily, and most people that are overweight know they need to diet, and even ways on how that is best achieved.
But basic cooking skills are definitely lacking across the population, and I don't think most obese people are overweight from overcooking either.

n.b. I made fajitas last night, it took less time than walking down the road to the chip shop or ordering in food, and it was cheaper and healthier (and tastier) than either option.

I agree with the rest of your post by the way.

 

[elmarko]

I think most people know they should eat healthily, and most people that are overweight know they need to diet, and even ways on how that is best achieved.
But basic cooking skills are definitely lacking across the population, and I don't think most obese people are overweight from overcooking either.

n.b. I made fajitas last night, it took less time than walking down the road to the chip shop or ordering in food, and it was cheaper and healthier (and tastier) than either option.

I agree with the rest of your post by the way.

I do agree that cooking skills need improving, it's another one of the many things which need to change to solve the problem - I don't think any singular approach will solve it.

It's a shame really, because as you say - you can make food which tastes better & contains less calories with a little effort, it's a shame people are not that way inclined.

 

[FARGO]

I don't eat huge amounts of food but in all honesty what I eat probably isn't that healthy.

The thing is I find it hard to get motivated about food most of the time. I eat because I'm hungry, not because I enjoy eating. If anything it's annoying!

Bring on the space pills!

 

[Glaucus]

, and even ways on how that is best achieved.

.

I don't agree with this part at all.

 

[elmarko]

I don't eat huge amounts of food but in all honesty what I eat probably isn't that healthy.

The thing is I find it hard to get motivated about food most of the time. I eat because I'm hungry, not because I enjoy eating. If anything it's annoying!

Bring on the space pills!

Yeah, part of me wishes I could just take 2 tablets in the morning & forget about food completely.

I don't agree with this part at all.

Yeah true, plenty of misinformation out there (terrible diet advice websites), but I think that those who genuinely want to lose weight & are able to fight their addiction will do it (maybe not by the optimal approach & it may take longer than needed) but through trail & error.

 

[Redgie]

Place a powerful laxative inside 1 out of every 100 fizzy drinks. You think eating horse is bad...

 

[peter_hutson]

Place a powerful laxative inside 1 out of every 100 fizzy drinks. You think eating horse is bad...

Or a glob of horse meat inside 1 in a 100 cans of "sugar saturated, diabetes inducing, potentially carcinogentic, teeth rotting pop". Alas it probably still wouldn't work. I suspect we're wired up to think of "now" as the most important.

 

[Energize]

NO MORE TAX. Doctors need to stay out of politics, provide facts but not opinions.

 

[elmarko]

NO MORE TAX. Doctors need to stay out of politics, provide facts but not opinions.

I disagree.

I want experts involved in politics as much as possible. (but I agree tax isn't the right method).

 

[Shayper]

I disagree.

I want experts involved in politics as much as possible. (but I agree tax isn't the right method).

Exactly.

A lot of problems in certain areas these days are - in my opinion - being caused by lack of expert involvement.

 

[peter_hutson]

It's interesting that we have an independant BOE to prevent political manipulation of interest rate, I wonder if we should have a "Board of public health" that is independant of Politicians too.