Finland considering giving every citizen €800 a month

estebanrey said:
Why is Lord Sugar worth several thousand times more than I do despite us both working?

People with disabilities from birth or from accidents (i.e disabilities that aren't self inflicted) should get all their medical needs financed and then given the average wage as disposable.

Why should someone who has no chance to fulfil their potential be given the same as able-bodied people to can work but choose not to?
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average wage as disposable!? that's insane that would put them way up there with massively high earners

and you've entered into the mine field of "not self inflicted" but included accidents/non birth.


does that include motorcyclist crashes loses legs?

massive obese person too fat to work?

rock climber who has a bad fall and breaks his back?
 
amigafan2003 said:
While I am against military conscription, enabling a system of public works like we had in the 1860's during the cotton famine certainly warrants looking at as a way of providing work for the unemployed that want to work - with the obvious caveats that the work should be paid at min wage or higher (i.e. none of this working 30hrs for your £73 JSA).

Meaningful work for reasonable wages - full employment should be the goal. Wont happen though, as for capitalism to succeed, it requires a certain level of unemployment.



Good riddance - there'll be enough non-selfish entrepreneurs to fill the market gap they leave.
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says the man willfully draining money out of a system designed to help the young and struggling better themselves knowing hell never pay it back into the pot and thus helping show the scheme to be a waste of money and should be scrapped/made harsher for the people who really need it?
 
balky12 said:
None of that makes any sense?

Lord Sugar is worth several thousands more than you because he owns a successful enterprise built on supplying a demand.
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It was a rhetorical question....I was obviously questioning the notion that "we're all worth the same".

balky12 said:
Why should disabled people get given 'the average wage' was disposable?
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Let me clarify, they should be an amount that means they'd have same mean disposable income that someone with an average wage job has.

The disabled person, through no fault of their own, cannot fulfil their potential so it is unfair to do as proposed by other posters and let them just have the bare minimum that the likes of a Jeremy Kyle guest would get.

I don't think it is right to send a signal to the disabled that they are only "worth" the same as an unemployed person who is unwilling to work at all.

balky12 said:
Disabled people do not get given the same as lazy able bodied people who do not work?
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They would under the proposed "let's scrap all benefits including ones for disability and replace it with this" scheme we were discussing. Not sure you followed the conversation before jumping on my post.
 
estebanrey said:
The disabled person, through no fault of their own, cannot fulfil their potential so it is unfair to do as proposed by other posters and let them just have the bare minimum that the likes of a Jeremy Kyle guest would get.
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ahh hthat makes way more sense, was gonna say giving 24k disposible to somone would mean that many would go out an probbaly no mind losing a foot or something :p
 
estebanrey said:
It was a rhetorical question....I was obviously questioning the notion that "we're all worth the same".

Let me clarify, they should be an amount that means they'd have same mean disposable income that someone with an average wage job has.

The disabled person, through no fault of their own, cannot fulfil their potential so it is unfair to do as proposed by other posters and let them just have the bare minimum that the likes of a Jeremy Kyle guest would get.

I don't think it is right to send a signal to the disabled that they are only "worth" the same as an unemployed person who is unwilling to work at all.

They would under the proposed "let's scrap all benefits including ones for disability and replace it with this" scheme we were discussing. Not sure you followed the conversation before jumping on my post.
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Ah I'm with you now, apologies. You were playing devils advocate.

But yes under the new scheme everyone would be worth 'the same' so to speak. I think the new scheme has it's merits, however a few hurdles to over come... not that I think it would get implemented anyways.

The potential argument is always a tricky one. How to you gauge ones potential?

But yes my bad. I took your post the wrong way :)
 
Tefal said:
says the man willfully draining money out of a system designed to help the young and struggling better themselves knowing hell never pay it back into the pot and thus helping show the scheme to be a waste of money and should be scrapped/made harsher for the people who really need it?
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When it comes to themselves, people believe they deserve every penny they can get away with. They may not steal from a person but that's because it carries a certain risk with the threat of risk coming from a person, while people will quite happily pretend their newly bought and dropped ps4 was not functioning the second it came out of the box because they will likely get away with it and that the company they are stealing from is just a name with a pound sign and a huge number after it. People treat the government the same way, if they can avoid tax through a loophole, they feel that they deserve every single penny for being aware of it.

This self entitled attitude is the reason why we have people living on benefits despite them being able to contribute to society.

Hell you even see this after people buy a product at full price and see it go to a lower price a few weeks after. There is always a few posters on a special offer thread saying the just bought this x time ago and if they can be refunded. I simply don't understand how people can be annoyed at anyone other than themselves if they miss out on an offer, since the transaction was worth it the day they paid for it but as soon as they gain the knowledge that it would have cost them less another time, they feel that the original price is suddenly unacceptable.
 
Tefal said:
ahh hthat makes way more sense, was gonna say giving 24k disposible to somone would mean that many would go out an probbaly no mind losing a foot or something :p
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My use of 'disposable' was confusing, I meant if we are going to take away all benefits and start with a "citizens income" for all, then disabled people who cannot reasonably be expected to get a job (so not people with half a finger on one hand missing or something) should not just be given the "citizen's income" amount but a higher one which reflects what an average person would take home (after tax but before all other deductions and with their right to the CI added on).

...and of course specialist equipment/medical care is free on top on that.
 
estebanrey said:
Why is Lord Sugar worth several thousand times more than I do despite us both working?

People with disabilities from birth or from accidents (i.e disabilities that aren't self inflicted) should get all their medical needs financed and then given the average wage as disposable.

Why should someone who has no chance to fulfil their potential be given the same as able-bodied people to can work but choose not to?
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Lord Sugar started working on the market, then he mortgaged everything to invest in his business with the risk of being made penniless if his bet on himself didn't work.

Ergo, he made a bet with massive stakes either way and he won that bet. That is why he deserves more than you, because until you grow a pair and decide to bet on yourself with the same stakes that's how it is.

Plenty make the same bet and lose, balls in your court.
 
kitch9 said:
Lord Sugar started working on the market, then he mortgaged everything to invest in his business with the risk of being made penniless if his bet on himself didn't work.

Ergo, he made a bet with massive stakes either way and he won that bet. That is why he deserves more than you, because until you grow a pair and decide to bet on yourself with the same stakes that's how it is.

Plenty make the same bet and lose, balls in your court.
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Sigh..it was a rhetorical question! Read my previous answers and what I was replying to. :rolleyes:
 
Good idea - do away with poverty. However lots of people in the UK need attitude adjustments to make it and them work.

Nobody should like being on benefits - they should always have more pride and WANT to achieve more. Not need or would like but WANT.

My nana's generation is what it should be like - never go through someone's wallet etc unless they specify you can/never claim anything you don't need etc. My nana is about £500 a month worse off than she could easily claim because she is so honest.

Sorry, went off on a tangent there... lol

Edit - obviously there is a difference with genuinely disabled people and care who need looking after. :)
 
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Finland has national service still. It tends to focus the population.
My ex mrs was a Finn and she told me that although military national service is technically optional, it's considered shameful to not do it. She said it turns boys into men.

I spent quite a lot of time there and saw a fair amount of the country.

Finland is an interesting country and has many things that we could aspire to. It does also have things that aren't so great, such as having to pay €50 to see your GP or the very serious problem they have with drunks. They are all fiercely nationalistic though.

I was amazed when I went on one of their trains that they had a children's' playroom on it with books and a small climbing frame. That would last about 2 days in the UK. The pride in their country keep things nice. I asked my ex about that when we were together and about why people didn't vandalise the playroom and steal the books. She said "Why would they do that? It belongs to the people so why would they want to destroy their own stuff?".
 
This will never happen because if it's successful its world changing, it'll either fail, be scrapped due to political pressure or sabotaged so that it fails by a certain heavily capitalist country. :p

I'd imagine it will be impossible to implement whilst a member of the EU anyway because half the population of the EU will go there with no plans to work and it will no longer be sustainable.
 
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Is it the same thinking as Switzerland? That a financially better off nation will suffer less stress and cost less in the long run.

I mean some medications for depression cost the nhs more than £570 a month. Let alone all the other services that are used up.
 
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If you made it genuinely high enough to live on, the only potential issue (other than finding the money in the first place) that I can see would be ignorant, pop a baby out, people. If they have a fixed income then the more children they have, the less the children have. They're obviously a real minority(if you remove the benefits benefit of having children then they'd only be the really dim).

As shoddily as the current system is, it might make sense to keep an equivalent of the PIP for disabled people, so long as it could be done efficiently and sensibly. The purpose of it is to make up the difference in what it costs a disabled person to lead a normal life, it's just currently a bit ridiculously assessed. All other benefits, obviously including tax credits and some/all of the tax free allowance could be removed.

The way to sell it to the UK population is by showing the financial benefit to them and the country, which is obviously the hard thing to do, but I don't think the numbers would end up too far out, the tax free allowance (if used by every citizen mentioned above) comes to £100bn.
 
Moses said:
Did you ever see the city centre after a night out? Carnage. Sometimes I had lectures at 8am and on my way to uni I'd walk past the clean up crews getting rid of all the litter - basically people would get food from McDonald's and discard the waste wherever... all over the floor outside etc :\. It did get cleaned up fairly quickly, so during the day you'd know nothing about it! Their evening McDonald's menu is crazy, too... stuff like a meal deal with two Big Macs to go with your fries and drink :p.



The cold's not so bad - just wear the correct clothing when out and about! Then, in Helsinki at least, you can go underground for fairly big areas of it and avoid the weather :cool:.
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Switzerland was the same: streets would get littered with McDs but by 7am the streets were cleaned.
 
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