Firaxis discusses why Mantle is revolutionary for their work with Civilization: Beyond Earth

GoogalyMoogaly · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:18

humbug said:
Because thats all there is, once PC gaming is as accessible on Linux as it is on Windows i wont be using Windows anymore

That's not true, there's also Linux.
But you use the bloated OS from the company holding back PC gaming?
So who's pushing gaming forward and why aren't you using their OS?

Why is everything Microsoft's fault?

Who is doing more for PC gaming than Microsoft?

Martini1991 · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:21

I have plenty of problems with Microsoft, but I've never understood the "I can't wait to get rid of windows for gaming".
I mean what the?

Windows 8.1 user here and I'm perfectly happy, my machines ridiculously fluid in everything it does etc.

humbug · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:31

GoogalyMoogaly said:
That's not true, there's also Linux.
But you use the bloated OS from the company holding back PC gaming?
So who's pushing gaming forward and why aren't you using their OS?

Why is everything Microsoft's fault?

Who is doing more for PC gaming than Microsoft?

MS have done nothing for PC Gaming since they discovered that people outside of 'PC Gaming' are willing to pay a repeat subscription to play games they already bought.

Martini1991 said:
I have plenty of problems with Microsoft, but I've never understood the "I can't wait to get rid of windows for gaming".
I mean what the?

Windows 8.1 user here and I'm perfectly happy, my machines ridiculously fluid in everything it does etc.

Windows 7 was decent, but even for all its faults i have always prefered Linux as a power users platform.

Windows 8 is an abomination, IMO.

But each to their own

bru · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:33

If you hate Microsoft and the windows environment that much go buy a PS4, job done nothing to do with windows or Microsoft, and most games will be released on it in the future. It even has a precious AMD APU inside so your not using Nvidia stuff, if that bothers you.

Gregster · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:39

Martini1991 said:
I have plenty of problems with Microsoft, but I've never understood the "I can't wait to get rid of windows for gaming".
I mean what the?

Windows 8.1 user here and I'm perfectly happy, my machines ridiculously fluid in everything it does etc.

bru said:
If you hate Microsoft and the windows environment that much go buy a PS4, job done nothing to do with windows or Microsoft, and most games will be released on it in the future. It even has a precious AMD APU inside so your not using Nvidia stuff, if that bothers you.

Well said chaps. I have just been playing Metro Last Light quite happily on Windows 7 and not once did I think "OMG, this is ****"

jh30uk · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:41

Big bad MS

Try using a MAC or Loonsux or a Console.

David Bisset · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:43

Honestly, I'll never understand the MS hate over DX. Could they have done more? Absolutely. But given DX9 is still pretty much the standard it's hardly rewarding for them to try and push the boundaries. They are the most successful API because they are, to date, the best for developers. Many things wrong with it, yes. But no other API is better. OpenGL is extensible which is it's strength but also it's downfall, as you jump straight back into separate codepaths. Mantle is limited to a tiny subset of hardware and will never be available for everybody.

As for comparing programming a game using an existing engine on xBox with programming directly by DX on PC... seriously, that's pointless. You can start writing a game on PC using an existing engine too.

Orangey · 29 Apr 2014 at 17:57

I want Linux and OGL to take over so I am not forced to downgrade to M$'s evil future Windows releases to enjoy the latest games with settings whacked to full.

We can't switch to Linux because hardly any games have Linux releases, stop being wilfully ignorant.

jh30uk · 29 Apr 2014 at 18:01

I rest my case (penny did not drop).

Go on living in fantasy non MS (mantle) land.

PhysicsMan94 · 29 Apr 2014 at 18:06

David Bisset said:
Honestly, I'll never understand the MS hate over DX. Could they have done more? Absolutely. But given DX9 is still pretty much the standard it's hardly rewarding for them to try and push the boundaries. They are the most successful API because they are, to date, the best for developers. Many things wrong with it, yes. But no other API is better. OpenGL is extensible which is it's strength but also it's downfall, as you jump straight back into separate codepaths. Mantle is limited to a tiny subset of hardware and will never be available for everybody.

Agreed, this is what I have tried saying in this thread (more or less) however certain other members took what I said, mixed up the letters that formed my words and then tried to imply I'd stated something completely different.

jh30uk · 29 Apr 2014 at 18:11

Now the "too long in the tooth" last Gen console DX9c have been replaced you will see more DX support.

GoogalyMoogaly · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:06

humbug said:
MS have done nothing for PC Gaming since they discovered that people outside of 'PC Gaming' are willing to pay a repeat subscription to play games they already bought.

Windows 7 was decent, but even for all its faults i have always prefered Linux as a power users platform.

Windows 8 is an abomination, IMO.

But each to their own

Why is it Microsoft's responsibility to further PC gaming?
There are lots of other companies in the PC industry why are they not getting blamed too?

Who is doing something for PC gaming? (Trying to figure out why Microsoft is to blame if nobody is doing anything)

LtMatt · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:10

GoogalyMoogaly said:
Why is it Microsoft's responsibility to further PC gaming?

Because everyone uses Windows. What's the alternative?

GoogalyMoogaly · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:13

LtMatt said:
Because everyone uses Windows. What's the alternative?

That's their choice. Linux is an alternative, not a good one though.
Also, by supplying Windows aren't Microsoft helping PC gaming? Considering the alternatives?

Rusty0611 · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:16

LtMatt said:
Because everyone uses Windows. What's the alternative?

OS not equal to PC gaming

.

You can further PC gaming without detatching from Windows. Conceptually I mean. It doesn't NEED Microsoft.

I like most people am not a fan of MS. In fact when it comes to being a fan of a company Sony are probably the closest it gets for me personally. But I think just blaming them for everything including AIDS and cancer is a little short-sighted and a little fallacious.

Edit: I don't mean you specifically, just in general.

LtMatt · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:20

There is nothing else decent to play games on though. Everything (meaningful) goes through windows/dx. So yes they're (partly at least) responsible for gaming, on pc's anyway. They got lazy when it comes to the pc though, hence no progression on dx for years and years.

One thing i do know, MS were royally peeved at AMD for Mantle. Certainly gave them the kick up the proverbial they needed.

Martini1991 · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:28

There has been progress though, Directx11 was massive progress when it launched.

DX11.2 with tiled resources etc.

If MS kept pumping out new versions of DirectX, you'd bet your last dollar that the uptake would be slow, so by the time people start using X version of DX, there's a superior feature set in Y version not being used.

People just love to hate on MS, I mean I hate on them continuously for their tablet movement, but that's entirely their own fault, this is different.

D.P. · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:30

humbug said:
I think there is probably a reason why both AMD and Nvidia have not been so enthusiastic about OGL as an API.

I don't know anything about OGL, but i do know some things about Open Source.

It can be disjointed with no real direction; no one really in charge and everyone wanting their say, it can also have a very regressive "This is My Church" mentality with patriants dreaming about the good old days before object orientated computing interface.

There is something to be said for dictatorships over democracies where applicable.

That is why open source projects have committees. Opengl Design go through the ARRB.

NVidia is actually very supportive of OpenGL and that is partly why their Linux drivers are so good It is also the standard for anything industrial.
. The games industry turned to DX largely through support form MSDN, the Xbox1, DX support in windows. OGL offers everything that DX does, is cleaner, simpler API and is faster.

Final8y · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:44

GoogalyMoogaly said:
Why is it Microsoft's responsibility to further PC gaming?
There are lots of other companies in the PC industry why are they not getting blamed too?

Who is doing something for PC gaming? (Trying to figure out why Microsoft is to blame if nobody is doing anything)

Its not Microsoft's responsibility to further PC gaming because they do not own the Platform, but they own windows and in regard to windows it in there best interest to make sure that there API is the best it can be on Windows and not someones else API being better on windows than Microsoft's own API when the API is meant to be one of Windows strengths.

It would be like all the TWIMTBP games running better on AMD cards than on NV own cards, what would be the point in TWIMTBP.

OpenGL is there its available on windows, Microsoft is not paying off developers not to use it on windows, so clearly there is some weakness somewhere along the line in OpenGL vs DX when it comes to gaming at the development level...

If Microsoft took a cut of every game sold on Windows like on there console it would be a different story.

Martini1991 · 29 Apr 2014 at 19:46

Final8y said:
Its not Microsoft's responsibility to further PC gaming because they do not own the Platform, but they own windows and in regard to windows it in there best interest to make sure that there API is the best it can be on Windows and not someones else API being better on windows than Microsoft's own API when the API is meant to be one of Windows strengths.

It would be like all the TWIMTBP games running better on AMD cards than on NV own cards, what would be the point in TWIMTBP.

OpenGL is there its available on windows, Microsoft is not paying off developers not to use it on windows, so clearly there is some weakness somewhere along the line in OpenGL vs DX when it comes to gaming at the development level...

Surely your example is wrong? It'd be in their best interest to make sure the best API works on their platform, (Not the PC platform, as you've said they don't own that, but the Windows platform) which any API will do unless it's made not to (Which would kill it dead in the water), and Mantle (Which is the best API in performance terms currently for AMD GCN 2.0 owners) already does?