Firing someone over Teams

[Ayahuasca]

I don't work with him that often. One of my team having been training him. He's very good at masking, though. He apparently did the best interview my colleague had ever seen (I didn't employ him), but when you speak to him in any other condition it's a one way conversation with two word answers from him.

You said above that he probably doesn't know he's autistic, so I'm not sure how he'd be good at masking if he doesn't know he has it. Someone who gives two-word answers in casual conversation clearly isn’t masking their social deficits very well.

Anyway, if that's the case, you could do him a favour and politely nudge him in the right direction as he's likely to need some reasonable adjustments in his future employment and to disclose it. He'll never improve if he's just given the standard support, because that's not what he's struggling with.

I've mentored people with ASD and they find it incredibly difficult to ask for help and many don't want the stigma that is absolutely still attached to it. But they can thrive with the right support and accommodations.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

You said above that he probably doesn't know he's autistic, so I'm not sure how he'd be good at masking if he doesn't know he has it. Someone who gives two-word answers in casual conversation clearly isn’t masking their social deficits very well.

Anyway, if that's the case, you could do him a favour and politely nudge him in the right direction as he's likely to need some reasonable adjustments in his future employment and to disclose it. He'll never improve if he's just given the standard support, because that's not what he's struggling with.

I've mentored people with ASD and they find it incredibly difficult to ask for help and many don't want the stigma that is absolutely still attached to it. But they can thrive with the right support and accommodations.

I've actually had discussions with him about his "learning style" and how I thought he learned a bit differently from other people in the company. He hasn't done anything with that information, though. I also made the other module leaders for the grad scheme aware that he didn't really process information like everyone else, but frankly, we don't have the capacity to make sweeping adjustments to support him.

Good idea regarding the nudge feedback.

Regarding the masking, when you speak to him you have this two word conversation. He is one of the people that picks up the phones to redirect them (small company, everyone mucks in), and apparently he's good at that. Then I read an email from him and he's not picked up any of the customer's tone, etc, goes straight to mega-formal. I don't know - lot's to think about his character and whether he realises his needs differ from the norm, but I'm not going to put my foot in it by telling him that.

 

[potatolord]

Thank you, that's very generous of you. I'm going to script what I say actually, because I don't want to say anything that could cause problems, knowing that as a company we don't do PIPs etc.

I always feel stuck between a rock and a hard place of firstly, being a nice, secondly, trying to be positive with people as that has a huge ongoing impact, and trying to balance that with effectively telling them they're doing a bad job.

Script out what you intend to say.

Go back half an hour later and read it.

Add any questions you think they're likely to raise and write answers to those.

It's not a pleasant situation, so make it as clear as possible for everyone.

 

[Nasher]

IMO anything like this needs to be in writing and laws and procedures followed exactly, or it will come back to haunt you later. If the company screwed up with something the law will always side with the employee. Then they will be looking for compo.

If they claim no one told them, what proof does the company have that they did if it's just over teams? From outside it might look like they simply stopped paying them.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

IMO anything like this needs to be in writing and laws and procedures followed exactly, or it will come back to haunt you later. If the company screwed up with something the law will always side with the employee. Then they will be looking for compo.

If they claim no one told them, what proof does the company have that they did if it's just over teams? From outside it might look like they simply stopped paying them.

I'm taking the company line on this. We don't typically follow a formal procedure for PIP, etc. I think that might change over time - it was only a year or two ago that we got an HR department, and that's still only one person.

I will be accompanied by a "notetaker" who also happens to be the HR person, so it won't just be me telling them something fortunately.

 

[jaybee]

By "over teams" I take it you mean a teams call where you are both having cameras turned on right? Rather than like a teams chat message "you're fired"?
In which case, yes teams would probably be preferable over coming all the way into the office to be told you are getting let go.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

By "over teams" I take it you mean a teams call where you are both having cameras turned on right? Rather than like a teams chat message "you're fired"?
In which case, yes teams would probably be preferable over coming all the way into the office to be told you are getting let go.

Oh yeah, definitely face to face on video.

 

[Stu999]

I'm taking the company line on this. We don't typically follow a formal procedure for PIP, etc.

Yeah, but the company line doesn’t sound compatible with employment law, claims of unfair dismissal, etc. If your HR team (maybe Legal too) aren’t involved with this then involve them today.

Edit - unless they’re under 2 years employed, when you can bin them for any reason.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Yeah, but the company line doesn’t sound compatible with employment law, claims of unfair dismissal, etc. If your HR team (maybe Legal too) aren’t involved with this then involve them today.

Yup, HR is having to grin and bear it. We're effectively dismissing him because his work doesn't meet the required standard. We can prove that if necessary, particularly as we set the standard. It's not a protected characteristic. He didn't have a PIP, but there's really not much anyone can do if you feel he's a poor fit for the company.

I've learned a lot with this guy - firstly to take action as soon as I see a problem, and secondly to follow a procedure. But I'm not going to hang on to him just to do that. The company accepts it's a risk.

 

[dowie]

Yes, you can fire someone over teams but...

Check everything with your HR person and make sure HR and management *in whatever location this guy works at* know about it!

In particular - they might have concerns about:

1) If you send this guy a teams invite and he just takes the meeting at his desk in an open office then you've got privacy issues, (possible) issues with his reaction to being fired- they may want a meeting room booked for this if he's not working from home.

2) They will maybe want to notify building security at that other office location, coordinate with IT too so that his entry pass, email account and login etc.. all disconnect/become invalid right after the meeting. It is potentially an issue if he's going to be using his work laptop for this meeting - what does he have access too via his login - production systems? IP? etc.

Ideally, you want a meeting room booked, a local HR person present in the meeting and either his laptop taken off him as soon as the meeting is over or better yet just have the HR person set up the teams call with yourself and get him to come to a meeting room without his laptop etc.

Thank you, that's very generous of you. I'm going to script what I say actually, because I don't want to say anything that could cause problems, knowing that as a company we don't do PIPs etc.

I always feel stuck between a rock and a hard place of firstly, being a nice, secondly, trying to be positive with people as that has a huge ongoing impact, and trying to balance that with effectively telling them they're doing a bad job.

Broadly you're fine here if it's < 2 years, especially if performance related. Definitely a good idea to not mention anything disability related if that's never been brought up and is just a personal hypothesis - if that is in fact the case then it creates a big potential liability for the company.

Just some minor criticism though - even if the company doesn't have a formal PIP process it's still your team and you can still choose to work with a HR rep and implement something along those lines (and indeed push for the company to broadly adopt such a thing).

In particular - did this guy pass his 6 month (or whatever time period) "probation" - if so why? If he's still in his probation period then perhaps this isn't appropriate unless he's really bad and you should instead look at something like extending the probation by 3 or 6 months and giving him objective points to improve upon + a team leader or more senior team member to mentor and check off on his objectives each week.

If he's passed his probation but is within the 2-year period then what actually happened here - was he OK and then his performance has dropped off? That's where you maybe do want to warn someone and give them 6 months to improve - though if that then leads to him being outside the 2 year period then it seems like something has gone wrong on the management side too here.

 

[NickK]

IMO anything like this needs to be in writing and laws and procedures followed exactly, or it will come back to haunt you later. If the company screwed up with something the law will always side with the employee. Then they will be looking for compo.

If they claim no one told them, what proof does the company have that they did if it's just over teams? From outside it might look like they simply stopped paying them.

You often have the option of simply leaving to HR. Simply put if it's under 2 years then you can fire them for bad performance, irrespective of the real reason, and no evidence is required. HR's job is to ensure that nothing comes back so I agree it's a good idea to script out, discuss and confirm with HR and away you go.. or HR does it.

Usually I would ask questions of the hiring manager/HR if I was the senior in accountable for the team(s). I still like to have evidence, proof to get past any finger pointing or political noise.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Yes, you can fire someone over teams but...

Check everything with your HR person and make sure HR and management *in whatever location this guy works at* know about it!

In particular - they might have concerns about:

1) If you send this guy a teams invite and he just takes the meeting at his desk in an open office then you've got privacy issues, (possible) issues with his reaction to being fired- they may want a meeting room booked for this if he's not working from home.

2) They will maybe want to notify building security at that other office location, coordinate with IT too so that his entry pass, email account and login etc.. all disconnect/become invalid right after the meeting. It is potentially an issue if he's going to be using his work laptop for this meeting - what does he have access too via his login - production systems? IP? etc.

Ideally, you want a meeting room booked, a local HR person present in the meeting and either his laptop taken off him as soon as the meeting is over or better yet just have the HR person set up the teams call with yourself and get him to come to a meeting room without his laptop etc.



Broadly you're fine here if it's < 2 years, especially if performance related. Definitely a good idea to not mention anything disability related if that's never been brought up and is just a personal hypothesis - if that is in fact the case then it creates a big potential liability for the company.

Just some minor criticism though - even if the company doesn't have a formal PIP process it's still your team and you can still choose to work with a HR rep and implement something along those lines (and indeed push for the company to broadly adopt such a thing).

In particular - did this guy pass his 6 month (or whatever time period) "probation" - if so why? If he's still in his probation period then perhaps this isn't appropriate unless he's really bad and you should instead look at something like extending the probation by 3 or 6 months and giving him objective points to improve upon + a team leader or more senior team member to mentor and check off on his objectives each week.

If he's passed his probation but is within the 2-year period then what actually happened here - was he OK and then his performance has dropped off? That's where you maybe do want to warn someone and give them 6 months to improve - though if that then leads to him being outside the 2 year period then it seems like something has gone wrong on the management side too here.

Evening. Thanks for the very thorough response.

I will ensure that my equivalent in his office knows it's happening. I will ask that he goes somewhere private, and HR will be in attendance. We will get him disconnected, although he will be asked just to leave his laptop. Shouldn't be a big deal to be honest.

I certainly won't mention my suspicions that he's autistic. I really think it's something that he should have told us though. If no one in his life has picked up on it, I think that's really strange. It's very noticeable in my opinion. Not that it really matters - just complicates the relationship with him.

He did pass his probation. The guy that passed it (equivalent in his office) hadn't had a proper chance to evaluate him, I don't think. That's unfortunate, but these things happen.

His performance hasn't dropped off, but its become more noticeably poor over time. Today, for example, he sent out a quote that hadn't been checked, which is SOP for us, and hadn't sorted out any of the corresponding information as it should have been. It's minor when taken in isolation, but it just makes a more complete picture to me that after 18 months or more, he still hasn't absorbed what some of the guys learn take as the norm in their first few weeks.

Yup, I will be pushing for a proper process. I am as guilty as anyone else, though.

 

[dowie]

He did pass his probation. The guy that passed it (equivalent in his office) hadn't had a proper chance to evaluate him, I don't think. That's unfortunate, but these things happen.

That happened at a place I worked, before they introduced the 2 year rule. We were not happy at all with the manager who just took it upon himself to approve it without speaking to anyone else - he wasn't the head of the department but technically the second most senior albeit usually in some sort of liaison role and not involved in day to day management stuff... but in the head of department's absence for a week's holiday he took it upon himself to play that part and just start doing stuff without consulting any team leaders/managers etc.

There was another guy who had his 6-month probation extended by 3-months and kinda knew he wasn't going to pass it so was calling in "sick" once a week (blatantly going for interviews etc..). He was a nice guy, personable etc.. but just completely out of his depth and that wasn't going to change in the space of 3 more months - would be more like 3 more years needed to get him up to the role. But he was an experienced hire, not a new grad, and was paid as such so there was far less lenience.

 

[HangTime]

I've worked completely remotely, interviewed and hired remotely and resigned remotely but also been terminated remotely

Now I think about it, in my entire career I've only ever left a job remotely except for one instance back in 2006, when our entire department (including my boss) was already under threat of redundancy anyway so they were happy for me anyway. That redundancy we actually found out about on our parent company intranet site before being told, which then prompted a hastily arranged HR meeting.

After that, I had a boss that worked in a satellite office 4 hours away, then a couple of resignations during the pandemic period, then a resignation when myself and my boss were mostly working remotely.

There was one time I was 'let go' (remote during pandemic) but that was a bit of a weird situation. I was a contractor and then whilst serving my two weeks they found a different role for me in another part of the organisation. By that point I already had my hat in the ring for some perm roles so ended up moving on shortly afterwards anyway.

So that 2006 instance was the only time I've physically had a face-to-face conversation about parting ways, and nobody has ever terminated me in person.

 

[Nasher]

That happened at a place I worked, before they introduced the 2 year rule. We were not happy at all with the manager who just took it upon himself to approve it without speaking to anyone else - he wasn't the head of the department but technically the second most senior albeit usually in some sort of liaison role and not involved in day to day management stuff... but in the head of department's absence for a week's holiday he took it upon himself to play that part and just start doing stuff without consulting any team leaders/managers etc.

There was another guy who had his 6-month probation extended by 3-months and kinda knew he wasn't going to pass it so was calling in "sick" once a week (blatantly going for interviews etc..). He was a nice guy, personable etc.. but just completely out of his depth and that wasn't going to change in the space of 3 more months - would be more like 3 more years needed to get him up to the role. But he was an experienced hire, not a new grad, and was paid as such so there was far less lenience.

TBH if I could see the end was near, I'd "call in sick" and go to interviews too. The job market is trash at the moment so you need all the time you can get. There is no real loyalty in business.

 

[MichaelAwkward]

I certainly won't mention my suspicions that he's autistic. I really think it's something that he should have told us though. If no one in his life has picked up on it, I think that's really strange. It's very noticeable in my opinion. Not that it really matters - just complicates the relationship with him.

Honestly, I'd be wanting professional advice before doing anything due to this aspect. What if they actually know they're autistic/awaiting a diagnosis and put 2+2 together? Yes they should've make you aware of this but it's not that clearcut in reality.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

TBH if I could see the end was near, I'd "call in sick" and go to interviews too. The job market is trash at the moment so you need all the time you can get. There is no real loyalty in business.

Honestly, I can’t see how the job is fulfilling for my guy and I really hoped he was interviewing recently. But apparently not as he hasn’t given his notice.

Honestly, I'd be wanting professional advice before doing anything due to this aspect. What if they actually know they're autistic/awaiting a diagnosis and put 2+2 together? Yes they should've make you aware of this but it's not that clearcut in reality.

I’ve given him many opportunities to mention it and have spoken to him about learning styles, but he didn’t say anything. It’s not just his potential autism - if he can’t keep up with the work then why should we keep him?

 

[Nasher]

Honestly, I can’t see how the job is fulfilling for my guy and I really hoped he was interviewing recently. But apparently not as he hasn’t given his notice.



I’ve given him many opportunities to mention it and have spoken to him about learning styles, but he didn’t say anything. It’s not just his potential autism - if he can’t keep up with the work then why should we keep him?

If he can sense things are against him, he may just bail and not give full notice especially if the next job pays more. I've done it before. The company owner was a dick and I wanted a month off before I started the new job lol.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

If he can sense things are against him, he may just bail and not give full notice especially if the next job pays more. I've done it before, the company owner was a dick and I wanted a month off before I started the new job lol.

I wish he'd do that, but he's not that savvy. He'll be paid for a month in lieu of notice and won't be asked to work it either.

 

[EvilRob]

Just don't be