Freesat

[David1956]

ok I'll do my best to explain.. I'm not very technical as you can imagine I already have a connection in my living room were i screw a cable from a socket on the wall(at the bottom) to my TV. and I get freesat so I want the TV Technician to run another cable from the dish into my bedroom.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

It depends which Sky LNB you have.
The one supplied for Q should work, and give you the full 4 channels at one on a FreeSat box.

Depends on the Freesat Box - Sky Q and the Freesat 4K boxes (Arris, not Humax) use a wideband LNB

Humax, earlier Sky boxes and the TVs I‘ve seen with built in sat decoders work with universal LNBs.

 

[lucid]

I would do it myself. Really can’t be that difficult.

You have to be careful here. Hooking up to a dish on your own home is one thing, but to a communal dish is something else.

Where it's your own dish, you're free to do what you want. After the first year's Sky+/Sky+HD contract, the dish became the homeowner's property and responsibility. That changed with Sky Q. The gear is on perpetual loan so long as the contract is paid. A communal dish though is generally not a tenant's property to mess about with. It belongs to the landlord. There'll be the odd exception where a small MDU is run by the owners, but these are far rarer. Even so, the dish still affects the reception at other properties, so a collective agreement must be reached before doing something that might mess up another user's reception.

Secondly, the type of LNB used for multi-dweller properties of 4 units or larger isn't the same as came with Sky+/Sky+HD/Sky Q. The signal wires go to a central distribution hub within the building, and what they connect to can look like a plumber's nightmare.

The image above is a satellite and terrestrial IF distribution system. There's a bit more going on here than your typical 8-way TV aerial amp bought from Argos. The LNB on the end of the dish arm isn't like one that Sky+HD used, and it's not a wideband either. Until fairly recently, it was a third type called a quattro. Some new installations will still use this type. It has four outputs, but these outputs are fixed to one each of the four reception modes required by a standard Freesat receiver; V-Low, H-Low, V-High, H-High. That's why they've used colour-coded cables, it's important to maintain 1:1 mapping. White is the terrestrial aerial feed.

The long rectangular box with the most cables is the multiswitch. This delivers a multiplexed signal of RF and IF-Sat via single cables to each dwelling. The signal is split out into TV and Sat by a filtered socket the same as you can buy for home use.

As far as the TV or box with a satellite tuner is concerned the signal could be coming from a standard universal LNB. When you change channel, the multiswitch responds by sending the correct frequency and polarisation signal for that channel.

@David1956 is talking about having a cable run from the living room to the bedroom for satellite TV. Whether the flat is rented or bought, that's generally going to involve getting the permission of the landlord. I've just run Ethernet for a chap who moved into a flat in a block of 50 units. The cables had to be concealed around the edge of the room but not fixed to the fabric of the building. The rules were very specific on that.

The satellite signal cable can be extended but can't be split. This doesn't work like an aerial feed. I guess we'll see what happened after today's visit.

 

[David1956]

It's fantastic. to have so many replies. I really do appreciate it .. anyway the TV technician as been and as give me a quote which I think is very dear but like the post above It's just not a case of running a cable. he said that there would have to be a spare port in the communal box but he would not get his ladders out to have a look unless I agreed to the quote I have add permission of my housing association to have the job done no problem at all.. anyway I decided to call some more companies up for a quote and I couldn't believe that they do not do free estimates If they come out they want paying to give you an estimate. I remember years ago when I add my own home and wanted any jobs doing they would give you free estimates. anyway I don't know what to do for the best like I said my TV in the living room is connected for freesat so I just wanted to have my bedroom TV the same because it as freesat built in

 

[lucid]

It's fantastic. to have so many replies. I really do appreciate it .. anyway the TV technician as been and as give me a quote which I think is very dear but like the post above It's just not a case of running a cable. he said that there would have to be a spare port in the communal box but he would not get his ladders out to have a look unless I agreed to the quote I have add permission of my housing association to have the job done no problem at all.. anyway I decided to call some more companies up for a quote and I couldn't believe that they do not do free estimates If they come out they want paying to give you an estimate. I remember years ago when I add my own home and wanted any jobs doing they would give you free estimates. anyway I don't know what to do for the best like I said my TV in the living room is connected for freesat so I just wanted to have my bedroom TV the same because it as freesat built in

Free estimates are still a thing, but only where there's a good chance that the job will be won and go ahead. When dealing with a houseowner then there's only one or two decision makers, and they're generally motivated to get a project complete.

The problem with flats is that you're not just dealing with the occupier but usually the managing agent, and a landlord, and the additional rules and safety regs that mean someone doing something stupid in one flat can't affect their neighbours. An extreme example would be doing something that puts mains power up the signal cable. That's why the distribution system is earth bonded. It's the same for copper water pipes and copper central heating pipes.

Getting all the ducks in a row takes time, and time is money. There are lots of folk living in flats who haven't a clue about the extra hurdles or think it'll be okay to just go ahead. It isn't. The installer often needs written permission addressed to them in order to satisfy their own business insurance, and even then, if someone in another flat later complains about reception being a bit off then the first port of call will be the last aerial technician who was in. The problem could be completely unrelated, but you'll get dragged back to troubleshoot and that's extra time too. Flats can quickly become a nightmare project.

 

[David1956]

Free estimates are still a thing, but only where there's a good chance that the job will be won and go ahead. When dealing with a houseowner then there's only one or two decision makers, and they're generally motivated to get a project complete.

The problem with flats is that you're not just dealing with the occupier but usually the managing agent, and a landlord, and the additional rules and safety regs that mean someone doing something stupid in one flat can't affect their neighbours. An extreme example would be doing something that puts mains power up the signal cable. That's why the distribution system is earth bonded. It's the same for copper water pipes and copper central heating pipes.

Getting all the ducks in a row takes time, and time is money. There are lots of folk living in flats who haven't a clue about the extra hurdles or think it'll be okay to just go ahead. It isn't. The installer often needs written permission addressed to them in order to satisfy their own business insurance, and even then, if someone in another flat later complains about reception being a bit off then the first port of call will be the last aerial technician who was in. The problem could be completely unrelated, but you'll get dragged back to troubleshoot and that's extra time too. Flats can quickly become a nightmare project.

 

[David1956]

hi lucid permission is not a problem. I have been granted permission. the problem was the price of the job. was in my opinion to dear so I decided to call other companies for an estimate. but they want paying to do one that's my problem

 

[lucid]

hi lucid permission is not a problem. I have been granted permission. the problem was the price of the job. was in my opinion to dear so I decided to call other companies for an estimate. but they want paying to do one that's my problem

No, I understand all that. You have permission, but do you have anything in writing that gives the installer permission? (You won't have yet because no installer has been appointed.)

Second, you've decided that the job is too expensive. Okay, but on what basis? I'm not having a go, just pointing out that all businesses have costs. They mount up very quickly.

Someone's 'Oh, it's only a bit of cable' expectation is often based on incomplete information and their own hourly pay rate. They forget all the costs they carry in say transport, food, clothing, and the tech they carry to stay connected. Whether they get paid £12 an hour or £20 an hour, for the first hour or two every day they're essentially working just to pay the bills to be there, and the only way it makes sense is to be there for 6 / 8 / 10 hours a day for 230 days a year and have the company paying into a pension and covering holidays and sick pay.

Something else I'll point out from this thread; you have very little technical knowledge. Towards the beginning of this thread you asked what an LNB was. You then asked again in post #18 even after @Grimley already gave you links the first time you asked. A number of people mentioned you need a feed from "the dish" or an LNB without realising that this isn't a simple domestic installation. Their knowledge is incomplete, so their advice isn't applicable. They also missed that this is for a TV connection, not a Freesat box. Sorry to say it, but most people here got this wrong because the correct information from you. That's not all your fault. It takes someone who knows what they're doing to ask the right questions. This doesn't change the fact though that you're still largely ignorant of what's going to be involved behind the scenes to provide you with a simple additional satellite signal connection.

You'd go broke very quickly on that pay rate if you had to call in the week before to provide a free estimate of how long it would take to do various tasks, then hope that your boss says yes, then find out that he got someone 50p an hour cheaper after shopping around.

When a person is self-employed there's no one to pay the bills if they don't work today. There is no holiday pay. There's no free uniform, no subsidised canteen, no employer's contribution to pension or National Insurance. There's a whole bunch of costs before the business owner makes a penny in profit. When they do make a profit, the Government takes a couple of slices in business taxes and personal taxes.

Don't get me wrong. There are over 4-million self-employed people in the UK, so they're mostly making it work, but it's a gamble every day.

 

[David1956]

yes I agree in what you are saying... but when I phoned this company up. and they came out the price was in my opinion was to high... but after a couple of hours. I phoned him to see if it could be done a bit cheaper? but he said not so I decided to accept the quote. but then he tells me that if there is no space in the box to connect the cable. the job can't be done and he wants paying for telling me that. what the **** he never said that the first time he come

 

[lucid]

yes I agree in what you are saying... but when I phoned this company up. and they came out the price was in my opinion was to high... but after a couple of hours. I phoned him to see if it could be done a bit cheaper? but he said not so I decided to accept the quote. but then he tells me that if there is no space in the box to connect the cable. the job can't be done and he wants paying for telling me that. what the **** he never said that the first time he come

He told you that there'd have to be a spare port, and that he wouldn't check until you agreed the quote. You wrote that in one of your replies earlier today.

Here is what you wrote:

It's just not a case of running a cable. he said that there would have to be a spare port in the communal box but he would not get his ladders out to have a look unless I agreed to the quote

IDK exactly what you're being asked to pay. Is it the whole job fee or only part of it to cover his time coming back and doing the box check?

Where it's the whole fee then I think you'd have grounds to question it since only part of the work has been done. Where it's part of the fee for doing the box check, then I think that's justified subject to how much it is in relation to the length of time to do the whole job. You've made use of the man's time and skills. It's not his fault that there's no space for an extra connection. He told you up front about the conditions for accepting the job. You agreed them.

Also, we only have your side of the story.

It's unreasonable to expect to use tradespeople's time and expertise and then not pay them when something beyond their control has occurred. By the same token, it's unprofessional to be expected to get paid the full amount when something that's a possible question mark turns out to be a reason why a job can't progress.

In the absence of a complete picture of events from both sides, what I would suggest is that you negotiate a part payment. Ask him what his callout fee is, and how much time on-site is included. Checking the box too, what, 30 minutes with ladders off and back on the van? For example, my call-out is £120+VAT for up to 1hr travel to site and an hour on-site. Bear in mind that that's a two hour round trip and 1 hr on-site with all the tools at my disposal. The cost of any parts used is on top.

 

[David1956]

He told you that there'd have to be a spare port, and that he wouldn't check until you agreed the quote. You wrote that in one of your replies earlier today.

Here is what you wrote:



IDK exactly what you're being asked to pay. Is it the whole job fee or only part of it to cover his time coming back and doing the box check?

Where it's the whole fee then I think you'd have grounds to question it since only part of the work has been done. Where it's part of the fee for doing the box check, then I think that's justified subject to how much it is in relation to the length of time to do the whole job. You've made use of the man's time and skills. It's not his fault that there's no space for an extra connection. He told you up front about the conditions for accepting the job. You agreed them.

Also, we only have your side of the story.

It's unreasonable to expect to use tradespeople's time and expertise and then not pay them when something beyond their control has occurred. By the same token, it's unprofessional to be expected to get paid the full amount when something that's a possible question mark turns out to be a reason why a job can't progress.

In the absence of a complete picture of events from both sides, what I would suggest is that you negotiate a part payment. Ask him what his callout fee is, and how much time on-site is included. Checking the box too, what, 30 minutes with ladders off and back on the van? For example, my call-out is £120+VAT for up to 1hr travel to site and an hour on-site. Bear in mind that that's a two hour round trip and 1 hr on-site with all the tools at my disposal. The cost of any parts used is on top.

I wasn't going to reply to your post, but I will.
you are entitled to your opinion. It's a free country. so why would I come on a public forum and lie about what happened? he come and gave me a quote it is not my fault he wouldn't look in the box first time he come to me.. so how could he have gave a correct quote? so anyway I call him back and said you can do the work (IT WAS ME WHO SAID WANT IF THERE ARE NO PORTS AVAILABLE?) and he said I can't do the job but I will charge you for looking in the box. why did he not look the first time

 

[lucid]

I wasn't going to reply to your post, but I will.
you are entitled to your opinion. It's a free country. so why would I come on a public forum and lie about what happened? he come and gave me a quote it is not my fault he wouldn't look in the box first time he come to me.. so how could he have gave a correct quote? so anyway I call him back and said you can do the work (IT WAS ME WHO SAID WANT IF THERE ARE NO PORTS AVAILABLE?) and he said I can't do the job but I will charge you for looking in the box. why did he not look the first time

I never said you lied. That's your words, not mine. What I said is that we only have your side of the story. That's entirely true. You're telling us what happened, and there'll be elements where you may have good recollection, and others where it's not so hot. None of us are entirely reliable witnesses of our own stories. There's always some bias or interpretation.

Whether consciously or not, we also edit our recollections. One example is your recounting of port availability. Do I really have to quote your own post back to you again? Now you're shouting at me (writing in capitals is considered shouting within forums) that you mentioned ports first. You may well have done in your conversation with him, but that's not the story you laid out for us here. Remember what I said about being an unreliable witness? That's not me having a go, it's just acknowledged fact.

Here's a stat for you:

Eyewitness misidentification has been found to be the leading cause of known wrongful conviction, contributing to approximately 70 per cent of known wrongful convictions that have been overturned by DNA testing.

Here's the link to the source: Carleton

You're ticked-off that it has cost you some money to find out you can't do the thing you want to do. I think we can all empathise with that.

What I think you want us to do though is take your side and judge "the nasty aerial man" (my words, not yours) because he hasn't given you a free pass. Sorry, but I for one won't do that. Had the job gone ahead, had a port been available, then he would have installed the cabling and you'd be up and running right now. You'd have been a bit grumpy about paying what you had to pay, but you'd be watching satellite in your bedroom.

You made a few comments and asked a couple of questions:

he come and gave me a quote

Yes, and didn't charge you for that by the look of what you told us. Other installers wanted to charge you.

it is not my fault he wouldn't look in the box first time he come to me..

No one said it was your fault. Besides, why would he look? Let's play out the scenarios:

• 'He looks in and finds there's no available connection point, then reports the same to you.' Now there's no chance of the job happening, or you think he's lying. Either way, you're not using him and he's just blown an hour of his time with nothing to show for it
• 'He looks in and finds that there is a port. Tells you the same.' - You say 'Thanks, but your price is too much' and then you go ring a bunch of other installers. "Oh, by the way, there's a connection point free in the box" you tell them. Happy days! Half their work is done for them courtesy of this installer, so it's easier for them to undercut him. He gave away a really valuable bit of information and has blown an hour of his time with nothing to show for it.

The only way that this ends in a job for him is if every other installer insists on pricing for a quote. You'll say that's what happened, but you've already forgotten how valuable it is to know beforehand that a viable connection point exists. None of the firms you contacted knew that, and so they weren't prepared to waste time coming out to look at a job where the chances of it going forward were so slim.

so how could he have gave a correct quote?

It's called contingency planning. He gave you a correct quote with the contingency that a port was available. You could have said that you weren't prepared to go any further until you knew for sure if a port was available. At that point, if I were in his shoes, I'd have said, 'sure, I can understand that, but you have to understand that this is extra work, and if I go up and open the box and it falls to bits or something stops working then I'm legally responsible. I need compensating for the time and risk. Here's a bill for £60 for finding out and for the risk. If you go ahead with the job I'll give you half that money back.'

 

[David1956]

g[url=https://ibb.co/PT42w4L][/URL]

 

[David1956]

good morning all after taking to a few friends and one of them noticed that two of the flats have there own little satellite dishes so happy days that's the way I am going to do it so just need someone to fit it

anyway as for you lucid you would side with the company that gave me the estimate because you your self are a fitter/company and when you look on there website(which clearly sstates free estimates I can screenshot it if you want proof you are not like the others who replied to my post you are very biassed please don't reply in future to any of my posts yes I know it's a public forum before you start on about that.

 

[HEADRAT]

Rather than start a different thread, hopefully this isn't too far off topic, anybody else noticed that Freesat seems to have a much better picture than Freeview? (a quick Google seems it might just be subjective on my part, luckily have have both )

 

[lucid]

good morning all after taking to a few friends and one of them noticed that two of the flats have there own little satellite dishes so happy days that's the way I am going to do it so just need someone to fit it

anyway as for you lucid you would side with the company that gave me the estimate because you your self are a fitter/company and when you look on there website(which clearly sstates free estimates I can screenshot it if you want proof you are not like the others who replied to my post you are very biassed please don't reply in future to any of my posts yes I know it's a public forum before you start on about that.

David, I'll side with whoever I judge is in the right. I try to remain neutral and objective. You painted a picture of you being a victim, but reading between the lines I could see something else going on, so I used my trade experience to present another side to things to bring some balance to it.

You're moaning on about not getting a free quote. Yet you wrote in your previous replies that he did give you a quote. Give, not charge. Give. That means you got your free quote, despite your claims to the contrary. What you didn't get was free work.

He came along, put eyes on the job, assessed the situation, and gave you a free estimate as far as he was able to, but with a caveat which he appears to have explained. Apparently though, you feel entitled to have people work for free for you, and now you're acting like a spoiled teenager who has been told that the world doesn't work like that; a Kevin.

("It's so unfair!")


Is this below supposed to be the proof of the free quotes thing from their web site? You couldn't even get that right.

You've had a lot of help from me and from other forum members, both in this thread and in your HDMI thread. However, if you expect the world to dance to your tune then this might not be the forum for you. We're a patient lot, and I think folk here bend over backwards to help. However, the guys here are pretty smart too. They're used to solving more complex problems, and so it's easy for them to see through stories that don't add up. If you want nodding dogs, go to a toy store.

You're at a crossroads here, and you have choice about the way you go forward. One way is to be a man about it, and to admit you let emotion get the better of you. The other way is less dignified, and it results in you cutting off your own nose to spite your face. The outcome of that is that you're the only one injured. Is that really what you want?

 

[lucid]

Rather than start a different thread, hopefully this isn't too far off topic, anybody else noticed that Freesat seems to have a much better picture than Freeview? (a quick Google seems it might just be subjective on my part, luckily have have both )

You're right. It is noticeably crisper. There's far more bandwidth per channel in satellite signals. This also explains why Freesat has more HD channels than Freeview.

 

[HEADRAT]

Ah OK, glad my poor old peepers weren't deceiving me.

One of my pet peeves are low bitrate HD channels, honest there should be minimums set

 

[David1956]

David, I'll side with whoever I judge is in the right. I try to remain neutral and objective. You painted a picture of you being a victim, but reading between the lines I could see something else going on, so I used my trade experience to present another side to things to bring some balance to it.

You're moaning on about not getting a free quote. Yet you wrote in your previous replies that he did give you a quote. Give, not charge. Give. That means you got your free quote, despite your claims to the contrary. What you didn't get was free work.

He came along, put eyes on the job, assessed the situation, and gave you a free estimate as far as he was able to, but with a caveat which he appears to have explained. Apparently though, you feel entitled to have people work for free for you, and now you're acting like a spoiled teenager who has been told that the world doesn't work like that; a Kevin.

("It's so unfair!")


Is this below supposed to be the proof of the free quotes thing from their web site? You couldn't even get that right.

You've had a lot of help from me and from other forum members, both in this thread and in your HDMI thread. However, if you expect the world to dance to your tune then this might not be the forum for you. We're a patient lot, and I think folk here bend over backwards to help. However, the guys here are pretty smart too. They're used to solving more complex problems, and so it's easy for them to see through stories that don't add up. If you want nodding dogs, go to a toy store.

You're at a crossroads here, and you have choice about the way you go forward. One way is to be a man about it, and to admit you let emotion get the better of you. The other way is less dignified, and it results in you cutting off your own nose to spite your face. The outcome of that is that you're the only one injured. Is that really what you want?

this is my last reply to the thread yes I have received a lot of help from forum members and if you look at my replies I always say (thank you for your replys or thank you for your help) so lucid or whatever your name is you are wrong again?

 

[lucid]

Ah OK, glad my poor old peepers weren't deceiving me.

One of my pet peeves are low bitrate HD channels, honest there should be minimums set

When the CODEC for DVB-T2 was released there was an opportunity to use the greater efficiency to improve the available bandwidth of both the HD and SD channels, but it would have meant switching off the DVB-T muxes, and with it, stopping millions of TVs and set-top boxes from working. That would have been too much upheaval, and so we're held hostage by the need to maintain backwards compatibility with the original DVB-T (none HD) version of Freeview. That, and the plethora of junk channels that exist largely to bring in advertising revenue.

Of course, it doesn't help either that the Government has sold off 40% of the original ch21~68 band space to the mobile phone companies. Our TV band space now goes from Ch21 to 49. As a result, the opportunity to have better bandwidth without switching off DVB-T has evaporated. The problem is fitting in all the transmitters so that no two adjacent masts have frequencies that clash. There are a lot of transmitters, so it's a huge juggling act.