GD is going to love this one - Rape case collapse

[Avenged7Fold]

I dunno, probably because he wanted to be careful, i am not sure of the laws around how you can handle evidence you are going to present before or during trial time.

Regardless, i think screaming:

I didn't rape her, she wanted it the whole time! She sends me messages like [insert explicit casual request for intercourse] and stuff all the time and i turn most of it down!'

Probably won't help his case. Outside of trial, innocent or not, he probably want to lay low as these accusations are life ruining when others find out and the place for this evidence is the trial i guess. He probably did make those claims at the start to police but i imagine they have to still investigate it and it was their poor investigations that let the situation become what it is. Obviously this is all on the police.

 

[Mr.E.]

It is about the Police/CPS knowing full well that they had evidence that would help the defense case/exonerate the defendant and they failed to reveal it.

The CPS didn't know either, hence the headline stating
Met Police to conduct urgent review after rape trial collapse

failed to disclose to the prosecution and defence teams

 

[Caracus2k]

The criminal procedure and investigation act...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...edure-and-investigations-act-code-of-practice

Describes how police must obtain, retain and disclose 'relevant' 'unused' material including that which may support a defence or undermine a prosecution. Police do not disclose to the defence directly in criminal cases but instead have a duty to disclose to the Crown Prosecution Service who in turn have a duty to pass on such material to the defence. In some exceptional cases ex-parte hearings can be heard at court called public interest immunity hearings where the prosecution can ask a judge to provide them a ruling where certain information can be withheld from the defence as its disclosure would not be in the public interest. The judge in such cases has to weigh up the effect not disclosing such material might have on a fair trial for the defendant(s)

Such matters often arise where police have used informants whose life would be put at risk if their identity was revealed via the provision of some unused material to the defence.

Relevant material is anything that may have a bearing on the case or any parties involved.

Unused material is any stuff the prosecution don't intend to use in a court trial.

Obviously a big miss up in this case.. However police officers don't generally get special training on understanding and interpreting phone download data which with modern smartphones can run into 1000's of pages on a download report.....

 

[Vonhelmet]

The criminal procedure and investigation act...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...edure-and-investigations-act-code-of-practice

Describes how police must obtain, retain and disclose 'relevant' material including that which may support a defence or undermine a prosecution. Police do not disclose to the defence directly in criminal cases but instead have a duty to disclose to the Crown Prosecution Service who in turn have a duty to pass on such material to the defence. In some exceptional cases ex-parte hearings can be heard at court called public interest immunity hearings where the prosecution can ask a judge to provide them a ruling where certain information can be withheld from the defence as its disclosure would not be in the public interest. The judge in such cases has to weigh up the effect not disclosing such material might have on a fair trial for the defendant(s)

Such matters often arise where police have used informants whose life would be put at risk if their identity was revealed.

Obviously a big miss up in this case.. However police officers don't generally get special training on understanding and interpreting phone download data which with modern smartphones can run into 1000's of pages on a download report.....

Thanks, that’s informative.

The article does refer to there being 40odd thousand messages, and I can’t believe every one of them was an invitation for sex, so it would be quite the trawling exercise.

 

[Caracus2k]

Thanks, that’s informative.

The article does refer to there being 40odd thousand messages, and I can’t believe every one of them was an invitation for sex, so it would be quite the trawling exercise.

Unused material is a nightmare. More so since the proliferation of digital devices holding multiple gigabytes of information in varying files types and formats. Social media has also cased a multitude of new problems as a wealth of information relevant to cases ends up in the public arena via this route.

Frankly the police are neither trained nor equipped to do their jobs properly in this particular regard..

It would also be almost certain that the task of reviewing all the unused material in such a case would fall on one police officer who was dealing with all the other aspects of the case whilst balancing a number of other cases at the same time....

 

[TJM]

It was a stupid question Von, to be fair

Not necessarily - the authorities in some countries (like Japan) don’t have to disclose anything.

The article does refer to there being 40odd thousand messages, and I can’t believe every one of them was an invitation for sex, so it would be quite the trawling exercise.

In civil disclosure, it is now acceptable to keyword search databases instead of inspecting every document (if you can get both parties to agree on the list of keywords, that is). You could enter every commonly used slang word for sex into a search and see what turns up.

 

[dowie]

The article does refer to there being 40odd thousand messages, and I can’t believe every one of them was an invitation for sex, so it would be quite the trawling exercise.

when you're talking about 40k messages they probably mean each line in a back and forth conversation via WhatsApp, iMessage etc.. counts as a 'message'

people tend to have a habit of writing multiple 'messages' in that context in order to simply initiate a convo or reply... i.e. a few messages for each line + another message containing some emojis etc.. could easily be say 5-10 messages just to initiate a conversation... then you get say bunches of 3-5 back and forth and suddenly in the space of a simple conversation 50 have been exchanged.

 

[Vonhelmet]

when you're talking about 40k messages they probably mean each line in a back and forth conversation via WhatsApp, iMessage etc.. counts as a 'message'

Well, yeah, but that's still a whole lot of messages.

 

[Vonhelmet]

In civil disclosure, it is now acceptable to keyword search databases instead of inspecting every document (if you can get both parties to agree on the list of keywords, that is). You could enter every commonly used slang word for sex into a search and see what turns up.

I was wondering what sort of searching or filtering they'd be able to do. I guess it depends on what format the data is in and how easy it is to filter in that way.

 

[dowie]

Well, yeah, but that's still a whole lot of messages.

it is a lot of messages, but it isn't necessarily a lot of dialogue/text is the point

I've just exchanged about 20 'messages' in the course of a rather short convo with a girl about meeting tonight for example... I'd wager that tallying up inevitable further messages later I could easily chalk up 200+ with her by then end of today... however reading through those 200 is just a case of scrolling down and takes a minute or so

 

[Hellsmk2]

Generally there is a large amount of victim blaming anyway here, so this just stokes the fire.



I just think the Police are understaffed and overworked, as are most services due to 7 years of austerity.

I know someone who works for the MET police in the control office and the hours he does are exhausting and ridiculous. The Police (and maybe the military) are the only services exempt from maximum working hours laws.

Victim blaming? Who is the victim here? The innocent man who now has his face plastered across the national press after a police cover up and a false allegation, or some IDIOTIC criminally negligent woman who does not face any repercussions for her actions. These types of cases have been continually happening for a long time now. The end result is a lot of ruined lives, both for the men involved, and for women who fail to report real crimes as a result.

There simply has to be repercussions for whoever makes a false allegation. However, I don't know what they should be, as most repercussions would just result in other women deciding against going to the police for fear of those repercussions should the courts decide that there is no merit in their claims.

 

[explicit4u]

Victim blaming? Who is the victim here? The innocent man who now has his face plastered across the national press after a police cover up and a false allegation, or some IDIOTIC criminally negligent woman who does not face any repercussions for her actions. These types of cases have been continually happening for a long time now. The end result is a lot of ruined lives, both for the men involved, and for women who fail to report real crimes as a result.

There simply has to be repercussions for whoever makes a false allegation. However, I don't know what they should be, as most repercussions would just result in other women deciding against going to the police for fear of those repercussions should the courts decide that there is no merit in their claims.

Threads on this subject tend to be full of blaming the girl for putting herself in danger, not coming out soon enough, being after a fast payday, or her regretting it the day after and screaming rape etc. etc.

And while the case may be dropped, I don't think that automatically means he's innocent but it does make her case very weak.

But as Orionaut said, this isn't about false accusations.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

It's on the National News now - poor lad.

 

[balky12]

Been with my girlfriend for 8 years. Doubt I've sent that many texts messages to her...

Whilst it doesnt prove he didn't rape her it certainly makes it look highly unlikely. Every police person associated with this should be sacked on the spot.

 

[Silly Goose On The Loose]

I bet the DM are remaining quiet

 

[UTmaniac]

40000 text messages pestering a person for casual sex does not mean you never have the right to say no and having said no, any hanky panky initiated by the other party is then rape.

 

[Hades]

40000 text messages pestering a person for casual sex does not mean you never have the right to say no and having said no, any hanky panky initiated by the other party is then rape.

Absolutely correct. But it is still very relevant evidence that the defendant had a right of access to.

What is even more relevant to the defendants case is that the accuser also appears to have been texting fantasies about having violent sex and fantasies of being raped.

 

[Em3bbs]

Like I said, I thought it was, but I wasn’t sure just how stupid. Clearly very. I guess it had just never occurred to me what the police were required to disclose. I mean, I figured there had to be some requirement given that they’d otherwise obviously have a monopoly on the evidence given it’s them that collect it...

"Yeah this bloody knife isn't worth handing over to as evidence, let's just hide it away".

Not sure if trolling or just a dumbass?

 

[Derek W]

Absolutely correct. But it is still very relevant evidence that the defendant had a right of access to.

What is even more relevant to the defendants case is that the accuser also appears to have been texting fantasies about having violent sex and fantasies of being raped.

Slightly ironic that it was the defendant that said no

 

[Vonhelmet]

"Yeah this bloody knife isn't worth handing over to as evidence, let's just hide it away".

Not sure if trolling or just a dumbass?

Well played and yes, on this occasion, I was dumbass.