Gender Pay Gap

[FnG]magnolia said:
A recurring theme over the previous 160 comments is how either the pay gap doesn't exist or that somehow women should 'try harder', 'negotiate harder' and generally stop moaning. The undercurrent being that some GD males think that they're being oppressed which I find hilarious in the context of the thread.

It's "but what about ME?!" to the extreme.
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Anyone in this thread think all "white" men are being oppressed? Anyone?

There might be a couple, but it's not the prevailing attitude you claim it is.

As for "but what about me?" well, some people think that whether or not people are given any consideration shouldn't depend on their sex. So they object to only one sex being considered and they object to misrepresented statistics and downright lies being used to promote sexism. That's what the "gender wage gap" idea is usually used for, especially when it's implied or stated that women get paid less than men for the same work (which isn't true - that's a recurring theme in this thread).
 
Angilion said:
As for "but what about me?" well, some people think that whether or not people are given any consideration shouldn't depend on their sex. So they object to only one sex being considered and they object to misrepresented statistics and downright lies being used to promote sexism. That's what the "gender wage gap" idea is usually used for, especially when it's implied or stated that women get paid less than men for the same work (which isn't true - that's a recurring theme in this thread).
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Well said.

I don't for a second think that white males are being opressed but I generally disagree with positive discrimination as it causes more problems than it fixes - in this case different tiers of employee.

I currently work for a local authority and by and large women occupy the top jobs however if you simply crunch the numbers then that gender will appear to be the lowest paid on average for the reasons outlined earlier in this thead. They run the place for goodness sake!
 
Can we talk about the lack of equality with paternity pay or is that taboo? I'm sure there are many fathers out there who would like to take a more leading role in childcare but are discriminated on right from the beginning.
 
Meths said:
If men by default took 9 months off to look after the kids then maybe it would even up a bit.
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Sharing parental responsibilities equally is the best way to close the gender pay gap in my opinion. Hats off to the Lib Dems for bringing in shared parental leave. Unfortunately, there's still pressure on men to not take this time off. The proposal to increase paternity leave from two weeks to three months would definitely help further.
 
Trifid said:
Can we talk about the lack of equality with paternity pay or is that taboo? I'm sure there are many fathers out there who would like to take a more leading role in childcare but are discriminated on right from the beginning.
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I was under the impression that paternity benefits 'match' the maternity benefits at the least... At least that's been company policy at my last couple companies (not that anyone had ever taken it). Literally that's more or less the wording. My guess is to avoid discrimination.

My partner works in HR at a company employing some ~400 people. Been running the shared parental leave scheme for 2/3 years. 1 person has taken it.
 
[FnG]magnolia said:
A recurring theme over the previous 160 comments is how either the pay gap doesn't exist or that somehow women should 'try harder', 'negotiate harder' and generally stop moaning. The undercurrent being that some GD males think that they're being oppressed which I find hilarious in the context of the thread.

It's "but what about ME?!" to the extreme.
Click to expand...

Wasn't there quite a public example of this with Jennifer Lawrence with one of her films with 2 male co-stars? She found out she earned a lot less than them and it turned out it all came down to the negotiations. Jennifer agreed on the first set of terms she was offered whilst her co-stars negotiated.

I've noticed it between me and my partner when it comes to our careers. Salary review time, moving jobs, etc. We have very different approaches; I push and make counter offers, sometimes ones that look daft on paper. Whilst my partner doesn't want to rock the boat.

Now these are only two examples which just could be summed up by personality differences without sex coming into it. However there must be an element to it.
 
balky12 said:
I was under the impression that paternity benefits 'match' the maternity benefits at the least... At least that's been company policy at my last couple companies (not that anyone had ever taken it). Literally that's more or less the wording. My guess is to avoid discrimination.

My partner works in HR at a company employing some ~400 people. Been running the shared parental leave scheme for 2/3 years. 1 person has taken it.
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We employ 5000 people (with a more female dominated workforce (plus the last 3 CEOs have been female)). Our paternity pay is the 2 weeks statutory £140 a week, while maternity is much more generous (to be fair, it could be even more so...) The shared maternity leave is just a line saying see the government site, not even a direct URL. Everyone in my department takes annual leave instead as they can't afford the drop in wages.
 
Trifid said:
We employ 5000 people (with a more female dominated workforce (plus the last 3 CEOs have been female)). Our paternity pay is the 2 weeks statutory £140 a week, while maternity is much more generous (to be fair, it could be even more so...) The shared maternity leave is just a line saying see the government site, not even a direct URL. Everyone in my department takes annual leave instead as they can't afford the drop in wages.
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I'll have to look into it in more detail. Maybe I am getting my wires crossed. Might be a difference between the standard 2 week paternity leave and actively going on shared parental leave.

It will all change by the time I have kids anyways :P
 
Trifid said:
Can we talk about the lack of equality with paternity pay or is that taboo? I'm sure there are many fathers out there who would like to take a more leading role in childcare but are discriminated on right from the beginning.
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Of course it's taboo, but why care? To hell with them.

There is a legitimate reason for some degree of difference in most cases - pregnancy and childbirth. So equality would have to allow for that, when relevant. If I was dictator, I'd split the leave into two parts - a purely medical childbearing leave for people based on individual circumstances and a parental leave for all parents.
 
Also I find you don't even have equality* when it comes to two people of the same sex doing the same job... let alone cross sexes. Far too many variables.

Age
Experience
Ability
Knowledge
Market conditions when hiring
Economy conditions when hiring
Company situation whilst hiring
Supply of skills needed at time of hiring
Amount of business brought in my individual

List goes on and on and on.

In my profession, insurance, to men and or women of equal age and experience can both be underwriters; but one could quite easily be on £30k and another on £300k. But both have the same job title.
 
balky12 said:
My partner works in HR at a company employing some ~400 people. Been running the shared parental leave scheme for 2/3 years. 1 person has taken it.
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Why do you think that only one person has taken it? Is it because people aren't aware of it, the dads at your company aren't interested in childcare, that they think it will damage their career or that they simply can't afford to take it?

I took advantage of shared parental leave but I was only aware that the scheme existed because my wife is a lawyer. I had a strange mix of emotions taking it. I felt guilty for leaving my co-workers in the lurch and wary about how taking it would be perceived (in at a company as progressive as the one I work at). I'm so glad I did though. Seeing my boy for an hour in the morning and evening and at weekends just isn't the same as spending the whole week with him. We have such an amazing bond because of the time I was able to take off.
 
Tunney said:
Why do you think that only one person has taken it? Is it because people aren't aware of it, the dads at your company aren't interested in childcare, that they think it will damage their career or that they simply can't afford to take it?

I took advantage of shared parental leave but I was only aware that the scheme existed because my wife is a lawyer. I had a strange mix of emotions taking it. I felt guilty for leaving my co-workers in the lurch and wary about how taking it would be perceived (in at a company as progressive as the one I work at). I'm so glad I did though. Seeing my boy for an hour in the morning and evening and at weekends just isn't the same as spending the whole week with him. We have such an amazing bond because of the time I was able to take off.
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Good question. My partner and I have pondered over this.

I think it's a whole range of reasons;

Mother understandably wants to spend as much time with the child? Yes the father would want to as well but are you going to tell the mum to clear off back to work after carrying your child for 9 months? Yes you can take 6 months off each at same time but then you will both have to go back to work and leave a 6 month old with a baby sitter. Easier for women socially whilst off on maternity leave?

Men less paternal? Struggle not being at work? (I was recently out of work for 2 months and after week one I was bored senseless and couldn't wait to get back. However I wasn't looking after my new child).

Wages would obviously play a part here somewhere.

Maybe people aren't as aware to the scheme as perceived? I was under the impression it was pretty well known and advertised in today's age of equality. But that might be due to me having HR for a girlfriend :P
 
balky12 said:
Wasn't there quite a public example of this with Jennifer Lawrence with one of her films with 2 male co-stars? She found out she earned a lot less than them and it turned out it all came down to the negotiations. Jennifer agreed on the first set of terms she was offered whilst her co-stars negotiated.

I've noticed it between me and my partner when it comes to our careers. Salary review time, moving jobs, etc. We have very different approaches; I push and make counter offers, sometimes ones that look daft on paper. Whilst my partner doesn't want to rock the boat.

Now these are only two examples which just could be summed up by personality differences without sex coming into it. However there must be an element to it.
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This. Pretty sure there has been studies done that in general women dont negotiate at payrise time and just accept the first offer whereas men are much more likely to discuss and end up with larger pay.

No should the employer therefore be at fault and automatically increase all the women's pay who didnt ask for more or tried to justify it?

I know my other half hates that bit about her jobs and she wont ask for more money when changing jobs or at annual review. In saying all that she has done well in her career and now pulls a 6 figure sum but you do wonder whether the men where she works doing the same job arent perhaps getting paid £10k more because they negotiated?
 
Ayahuasca said:
What's her career? A 6 figure salary in the North East is extremely rare.
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Senior Technical position for a large pharmaceutical company and she is home based but does travel about two weeks out of a month round the world. She just got back from a week in Rome last night.
 
balky12 said:
pharmaceutical + 50% travelling = ££££££
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Yeah she loves the working from home bit too. She goes to head office once a month for a day or two in London which is no biggy on the plane from Newcastle. Some months she can end up been at home for the whole month.

This month was really bad as the has been away 3 weeks in a row except for the weekends. A week in Ireland, then a week in Brazil and last week in Rome (although that was taking clients away so was a week of wining and dining. :)
 
Greebo said:
Yeah she loves the working from home bit too. She goes to head office once a month for a day or two in London which is no biggy on the plane from Newcastle. Some months she can end up been at home for the whole month.

This month was really bad as the has been away 3 weeks in a row except for the weekends. A week in Ireland, then a week in Brazil and last week in Rome (although that was taking clients away so was a week of wining and dining. :)
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Sounds like a decent balance, travelling that much and then office work rest might be too much, but travel and working from home makes a big difference.

With my partner working in HR we are hoping, come family life, she can persuade her employers that working from home would be an option (part time basis)... We shall see!
 
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