German court rules circumcision is 'bodily harm'

[dirtychinchilla]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18604664

I think this is a great move on behalf of the German government, despite being very controversial. If I momentarily have a lapse of reason and accept that religion will continue to exist, I think it's fine that Jews and Muslims choose to be circumcised, but the idea that you, as a child, have no choice in the matter is absolutely appalling.

For those who don't actually read the article, basically, circumcisions will continue, however, it must be chosen in adulthood, not a decision made by a boy's parents when he is born. I don't think it's valid that religion has a precedent for anything, and bodily mutilation is very much unacceptable!

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Why is it acceptable for parents to decide their religious beliefs to the extent that their child is then mutilated? Not everyone who was circumcised at birth is pleased with it. A child should be allowed to make the decision themselves, it's not about preventing circumcisions for religious reasons, it's about choice.

With regards to piercings, I don't think that's right either, but you can't regrow a foreskin, but piercings can close.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I saw this on that Sunday morning debate show. They had a doctor, some woman and a Jewish guy on. The woman said "We shouldn't interfere with Jews since they have done it for thousands of years" and "It's because Germans don't like Jews they they are doing it". The doctor (who I agreed with) said it was a complete violation of someone's rights to mutilate them for life with an irreversible procedure, and the procedure can cause medical problems like septicemia and uncontrollable bleeding, as well as mental issues later in life. The Jewish guy said they have been doing it for years and a third of men in the world have had it done, so there are no issues. He also said that if a Jewish kid didn't have it done then when he was older and saw all the other Jewish nobs then he would feel different.

An absolutely disgusting practice which should be banned IMO.

Yeah I skyped into the show but I was a tiny bit too late...I think they were going to put me on except it took me too long to dig out my webcam! This thing about Jewish boys feeling alienated...well they can go and get it done, but it should be their own choice. That Jewish guy, although fairly moderate, was a bit of a moron.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

So parents don't have the right to 'do' anything for a child? Wow, so my parents have been braking the law when buying me gifts?

You're being childish because someone doesn't agree with you. Why do parents have the right to mutilate their children?

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I was not a brainless child. I have a brain, I have common sense, I can speak English. As a matter of fact, I started working with computers at 9, and I am now 12.

And do you think people should have the right to choose whether they are circumcised or not? Like you did?

 

[dirtychinchilla]

If it's not medical or part of their religion.

Why would your religion dictate whether or not you should be mutilated? I'm talking about whether you get to choose as a child whether you want it or not, not talking about saying "no one can ever be circumcised".

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Theres no difference, you are mutilating a childs ear (body) without thier consent.

Would appearence be classed as a good reason?

I agree with you, but piercings are essentially reversible. Good luck growing your foreskin back.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

There's risk in getting a vaccine jabs, should we stop them?

I have a scar on my shoulder from a vaccine jab as a child, i dont like it and i was given no choice. Should we ban these as well as i had no made a decision if i wanted it or not?

Does your jab benefit you? Yes.

Is the effect incredibly minor? Yes.

Does it ever negatively effect how your body performs? No.

The answers are all opposite for circumcision. It is a much more drastic change.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I disagree...all it does is devalues your argument as you need to rely on extreme comparison to make your point.

And the welfare of the child is the most important thing, and the consequences of an outright, immediate ban should be considered when judging the relative harm in each decision, rather than knee jerk reactions based on outrage and differences in cultural beliefs.

If there was an immediate and proven danger to children's health then you may have a point, however as 1/3 of men are thought to be circumsised the relative harm of driving the practice underground or abroad should certainly influence our decision making regarding the welfare and best interests of the child in the circumstances presented.....As is the reality of whether the banning of the practice outright would actually be an effective way of halting the practice.

That is not an acceptance of the practice, but an objective consideration of the issues and relative harm surrounding the practice and the most effective way of ensuring the welfare of the children are maintained while attempting to change people's attitudes.

I understand what you're saying, however, surely it should be the child's decision. The practice is archaic and serves no purpose.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Indeed, as I said at the outset it should be the decision of the individual....however we do not change thousands of years of tradition and cultural practice overnight, and you do not change such entrenched attitudes by banning them outright.

So to be effective in maintaining and ensuring the welfare of the child remains our primary concern, we have to work toward changing people's attitudes, not necessarily by simply imposing ours on them.

Yeah man, absolutely. On an international level, though, this is a very small change. Perhaps it will begin to change people's attitudes.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Really? I hope they don't overturn it, it's long overdue in my opinion. It has indeed provoked discussion though....hopefully it will come into more people's awareness as a result.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

First post in this thread, and I don't want to jump into any pointless debates about religion or whatever;

I was circumcised when I was a kid, 90% of my mates were also circumcised as a kid (not all Muslim), and 2% of my friends were forced into a circumcision when they were 9/10. 100% of them are happy and/or glad they've had a circumcision, including me.

When I look at my penis, I don't think "**** I've lost my foreskin", I've never thought that even once in my whole life. I've not once thought I've been "mutilated".

What a ridiculous word anyway, just used to incite hate toward circumcision. According to a popular online dictionary; Mutilation is to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part. Severing an arm is mutilation, chopping off a thumb is mutilation, slicing off a piece of overhanging skin from your penile shaft is not.

Honestly, I don't know what magical essentials all your foreskins provide, maybe you can enlighten me on that, now I won't go into every detail but sufficed to say I can still achieve boner. Maybe if you foreskin lovers can provide details of what functions yo can perform with your foreskins I might change my opinion.

That's fine man, that's your opinion, but not everyone is happy that they were circumcised. One of my friend's is furious that his parents let it happen, I don't think my dad is very pleased (my grandmother was Jewish, now atheist), and this guy who called on on Sunday Morning Live said it had effected his whole life in terms of his confidence. So it's not 100% of people who are happy. Surely, though, it would be best to ask people what they want instead of forcing it on them??

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Fin.

Awesome debate, I love that one. The Jewish guy gets absolutely destroyed.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

why do jews and muslims cut bit of their kids off? (serious question)

who ever wrote / made up their religious texts had some good ideas, like no drinking and not eating pork there is a good reason (or used to be) not to eat pork - somethign about parasites I think..

there must be real reason parents started doing it?

Castiel explained a bit earlier in the thread, 2 pages back I think.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Haha that last statement is untrue Castiel. We disagree because parents are often wrong.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

This may or may not be true

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Well said, do you know now why I say that people are xenophobic? These people hold the mentality that in order to get along with other cultures, religions, tribes, nationalities etc etc that you need to assimilate their beliefs rather than have an understanding why people practise various rituals.

I'm not surprised that Nazi Germany are spewing their hatred towards the Jews by passing stupid laws.

Whip out the anti-semetic card, once again, good job. You may join the rest of the uniformed masses. Just because you oppose a religion, does not mean that you hate Jews.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Look at any US porn and the guy will be cut. I'm on a largely American forum, and pretty much all the women on there are like "Foreskin? Ewww gross! Looks like an ant-eater! Bleurgh", and purely because they are only used to cut guys.

...what kind of forum is this?!

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Well most of us are saying it's fine if it's for medical reasons, and if people want it, but primarily that Jewish boys should not be circumcised until they or of a sufficient age to make an informed decision, and not have the decision left to their parents.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

That explains the rubbish your spouting. So were you baptized, did you have a christening when you were born?

I would hope that, in fact, an atheist/agnostic would spout more rubbish considering they are unlikely to believe myths and tales created by faiths.

I am an atheist/agnostic and was christened, and I wish I hadn't been, but at least it doesn't involve permanent mutilation.