German court rules circumcision is 'bodily harm'

Like I said, that is down to their personal faith and how they personally justify their actions, it is not something you can blame specific religions for. If there was no religion, they would simply justify it in another way. Faith isn't contrary to evidence and logic either, the individual may inform their Faith in an illogical or destructive way, but others will apply critical thinking, evidence with regard to their worldview and come to what they consider a logical assumption.


The troubles in NI are not driven by religious ideology, they are driven by political ideology, relogion is simply the excuse, not the cause. If you remove religion from equation, the problems will not go away, the way they manifest will simply change.

It is easy to blame religion, as it abrogates you of your own responsibilty.

Religion is not "simply the excuse" and claiming so is a grossly uninformed statement about the troubles in NI.

As for the first point, if someone in authority instructed someone else to murder a black person because they were black, would that be considered a wholly personal act on the behalf of the murderer or is the idea of murder/racism inherently wicked? Before the strawman appears again :), I'm in no way suggesting that religion incites murder/racism as that's up to interpretation but what I am suggesting is not up to interpretation is that religion encourages holding a faith position, even if (not definitely so) contrary to logic or evidence, and that is harmful. I'm not blaming specific religions either. I'm saying that general theistic belief is harmful; not deism, pantheism or a sense of the transcendant.

If you go further down the route of assuming religious belief is a wholly individual choice then I'll leave it there because we'll get nowhere ;) I'm aware that's not exactly what you're saying but you'll get a taste of what it's like for me reading your replies! :D
 
Religion is not "simply the excuse" and claiming so is a grossly uninformed statement about the troubles in NI.

The troubles in NI are predominantly political and based on nationalism....religion plays it part because it is also manifested in that nationalist separation between Unionist and Republican. I don't think removing religion would help, although I do think that policies such as Peace Walls and social segregation along religious lines are foolhardy and will only increase division, as do the Marches. We do not see such segregation along Protestant/Catholic lines in England for example, which would indicate another reason other than simply relogion as being in play in NI.....history and politics being the major ones.

I agree that the issues in NI are far more complex than simply pointing at one or two factors and saying 'this is why', but it is equally naive to suggest removing religion or people's faith will have any real impact on the issues that do inform the dispute.

I'm saying that general theistic belief is harmful; not deism, pantheism or a sense of the transcendant.

I definitely do not agree that holding a general theistic belief is inherently harmful.....not at all.
 
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Again this is down to the individual and how the express and inform their own faith and/or worldview.....equally with homophobia, it is not the religion, but the expression of it by the individual, if someone is homophobic, whether they are religious or not is immaterial as the prejudice will manifest in one way or another, if they are not homophobic then they will not manifest that prejudice, it is likely that if they are religious they will interpret commonly held homophobic scripture differently as their interpretation is largely based on those prejudices, either negative or positive.

True, there are people who will be homophobic regardless of whether religion is there as an excuse or not, but I would still argue there are people who are are 'homophobic' as a result of religion and I think the 'belief in God' argument does a pretty good job of illustrating this.. (Of course, this depends on what 'homophobic' actually is.. see below)

There is a common misconception that the Church promotes homophobia, it doesn't, quite the contrary....also not supporting Gay Marriage doesn't make someone homophobic either as that would be largely down to why they oppose Gay Marriage. (I support Gay Marriage, but only as Equal Marriage not retaining the current civil partnership policy).

I wouldn't claim to know a great deal about religion, certainly nowhere near your level of knowledge but is it not thought to be a Sin in the Catholic church to engage in homosexual sex? I'd argue that saying they're doing wrong or judging someone negatively because they're attracted to someone of the same sex to be a form of homophobia.

I do not think that religion causes homophobia, I think it may reinforce homophobia in those who would tend toward that kind of prejudice anyway, but that is all. I feel that culture and society is more influencial on the prejudices of the individual than religion, particularly in modern Western Society.

We only have to look at some societies such as China that traditionally had an acceptance of homosexuality, but due to cultural and political change homophobia has manifested itself, firstly by State enforcement and now as State indifference to prejudice. It simply replaced one justification for prejudice with another......

I think that's a sad state of affairs in China and I wouldn't disagree that politics can promote such horrible things as homophobia as well, but I don't think that excuses religion to do it as well.

Edit: You said that China traditionally had an acceptance of homosexuality, and I don't know anything about it but you then go on to suggest that State enforcement (an outside influence from the individual) has resulted in homophobia manifesting itself? Or am I reading that wrong?
 
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Because getting a bath is that hard?

Why don't you get your arse cheeks stitched together so that crud doesn't accumulate there too, or remove your fingers because of how bad they'll smell when you inevitably dig out your arse crack because it's itchy from not washing for a week.

Not that, mate - It's actually scientifically proven that it's actually cleaner.
 
Not that, mate - It's actually scientifically proven that it's actually cleaner.

We have been through this. The evidence for circumsicion being cleaner is inconclusive at best. The fact is, showering once a day is more than enough, but that seems a lot to ask for a few on here?
 
Again this is down to the individual and how the express and inform their own faith and/or worldview.....equally with homophobia, it is not the religion, but the expression of it by the individual, if someone is homophobic, whether they are religious or not is immaterial as the prejudice will manifest in one way or another, if they are not homophobic then they will not manifest that prejudice

If that was completely true then you'd expect to see levels of homophobia roughly equal in all parts of the world regardless of their religious devotion.

This is quite obviously not the case where levels of homophobia in large parts of Africa, the Middle East and the Southern States of America are clearly more prevalent than in any Western, more secular society.

Pointing out China's record on homophobia doesn't detract from that observable fact, it just shows that you can have homophobia without religion which no one is disputing.

If religion plays no part and has no increasing effect of levels of homophobia then why do we clearly see greater levels of it in both the public and governmental attitudes of the more religious societies and conversely why are gay rights held up more principally in secular ones?
 
I wouldn't claim to know a great deal about religion, certainly nowhere near your level of knowledge but is it not thought to be a Sin in the Catholic church to engage in homosexual sex?

Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Read that as you will, I'm sure it's just a "metaphor" that's the usual excuse anyway.
 
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I know this will annoy Castiel but I'd say the route cause of that was intelligence. Smart people tend to have more job opportunities, earn more money and hence have less to gain and more to lose by committing crime. I'd bet if you looked at the educational records of the prison population you'd see that link.

And, it is a proven fact that atheism is more prevalent in the well educated and hence you see the connection.

And before I get misquoted, that's to say there's aren't very intelligent religious folk or stupid atheists, it's a generalisation.
 
True, there are people who will be homophobic regardless of whether religion is there as an excuse or not, but I would still argue there are people who are are 'homophobic' as a result of religion and I think the 'belief in God' argument does a pretty good job of illustrating this.. (Of course, this depends on what 'homophobic' actually is.. see below)

Belief in God doesn't predicate being homophobic.


I wouldn't claim to know a great deal about religion, certainly nowhere near your level of knowledge but is it not thought to be a Sin in the Catholic church to engage in homosexual sex? I'd argue that saying they're doing wrong or judging someone negatively because they're attracted to someone of the same sex to be a form of homophobia.

It is not considered sinful to have Homosexual thoughts or desires, acting on them is however, but only for those of the Catholic Faith and that is only if you interpret the Pauline Epistles in that way, there is a valid interpretation that counters much of the Catholic doctrine on this subject.......however that doesn't mean that the Catholic Church promotes homophobia against those that do, quite the contrary. The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly states that "[Homosexuals] must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfil God's Will in their lives, and if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lords Cross the difficulties they may encounter form their condition."

Now, I personally do not like the terminology used such as Condition as that implies they are suffering from an abnormality of some kind...however I am not a Catholic or religious so that is to be expected....however I think you would be hard pressed to say that the Catechism supports Homophobia. The Catechism also tells "States to do away with criminalising Homosexuality, is opposed to violations of their human rights, opposes all forms of violence against homosexuals and believes prejudice should be confronted at all levels, particularly State Level."

John Paul II said that the Church recognises that they do not choose their Homosexual Condition and for most of them it is a trial....again I am not entirely happy with the wording, but the idea is that homophobia is frowned upon, if not expressly forbidden by the Catholic Church.

The current Pope said in 1985; "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs." (although he also reiterated that the act itself is "it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil" so we have to balance the positive with the negative.

Now you could argue that all is contrary to their stance against Gay marriage, however form their persepective they are not arguing against gay marriage, but against redefining marriage as it is currently as a Union between a Man and a Woman....

Personally I think that the Church is struggling with it's own doctrine and how that informs modern Catholics, like most organisations of it's size and scale it is often somewhat anachronistic when compared to the actual beliefs and positions of it's congregation, the apparent contradiction of Cardinal Ratzinger illustrates my opinion...but it is changing, slowly, but changing nonetheless. There are Catholic Theologians and Cardinals that support the full acceptance and reinterpretation of Scripture and therefore doctrine, and others who oppose that. Time will tell.


I think that's a sad state of affairs in China and I wouldn't disagree that politics can promote such horrible things as homophobia as well, but I don't think that excuses religion to do it as well.

I am not excusing religion, what I am doing is giving an example that it is not only religion that can be used to justify prejudice or the promotion of such and therefore the call to remove Religion or a world without religion would not, in all likelihood, be any better....it could, given the inherent strictures in most religions be somewhat worse, because religion, as well as being a tool to justify prejudice, it can be a tool to be used to combat prejudice.

Edit: You said that China traditionally had an acceptance of homosexuality, and I don't know anything about it but you then go on to suggest that State enforcement (an outside influence from the individual) has resulted in homophobia manifesting itself? Or am I reading that wrong?

Manifesting itself in the State paradigm....so it made prejudice against homosexuality acceptable, those that would have been open to prejudice have an outlet for it, those that are not open to such prejudices would not.....the example was more to do with the differences or similarities between homophobia in Religion and Homophobia in a non-religious environment to illustrate that people will justify and manifest their prejudices in other ways if religion is not open to them. It is a factor of Human Nature, not of belief in God. Over time (since the death of Mao) the Chinese State have softened their approach toward homosexuality on a State Level. So while Communism (like Religion) can be used as a tool to promote prejudice, it is dependent on the interpretation of the individual as to how that manifests itself.....unfortunately with examples such as China and Stalinist Russia, the absolutism inherent in the power-base meant that the will and prejudices of the few manifested as widespread oppression and persecution of homosexuals...religion generally avoids this as it has doctrine that supersedes the authority of the individual.
 
That depends, intelligence is hardly a marker for religion, except the obvious "Organised religion" vs got better things to do.

However, it is TOO complex when it gets to theist properties, Monotheism, polytheism, pantheism and so on.
 
I can't wait until religion is nothing more than a relic of a disturbed, bloody past. We don't need this cancerous growth, sucking the life out of our world. It should be consigned to the grave. It's very nature goes against everything moral.
 

No they do not....they are statistics in the United States, not the UK and given the population demographic the statistics do not support any position on whether those of Faith or no-Faith are more predicated toward criminality due to their relevant positions. There is also the issue in the United States that converting to or professing a religion is a common prerequisite to obtaining early parole and opens pathways to rehabilitation and education programs within their incarceration.......in any case the spread of the prison population is comparable to the spread of the population in general.

According to the DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics (National Census of the Jail Population 12/31/95), while 72% affirmed affiliation with religious institutions (determined through answers to the question on "Religious Background" on the Penal entrance form) only 54% of Federal and State Prisoners actually consider themselves religious, and 33% can be confirmed to be practicing their religion. This is demonstrated by attendance records at religious services, which averaged anywhere between 30% and 40%, depending upon the time of year and the institution in question (and who was preaching). These figures are comparable to the national average as establish by the Gallup organization.

data from 2002 and the Federal Bureau of Prisons puts that figure at 19.09% for non-religious and 79% religious........

all this data corresponds to the national make-up of the US population...where around 85% of Americans have a stated religious preference.

So the stats do not support the idea that you are more inclined to commit crime of you are religious......


I know this will annoy Castiel but I'd say the route cause of that was intelligence. .

It doesn't annoy me that you hold that opinion, why would it?

The prison population demographics in the United States is highly controversial, namely because of the predominance of Afro-Americans and the poor sitting in them....I would say that intelligence may well be a factor, although I would be more inclined toward other factors such as lack of viable opportunity, high unemployment, prejudice, poor education, drug use and deprivation.
 
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Belief in God doesn't predicate being homophobic.

Not what I meant really.. I was referring to the point I made in a previous post regarding whether homophobia was inherent in the person and religion just gave them justification, as opposed to being the cause. I was suggesting that if you applied the same logic to belief in God, there probably wouldn't be plenty of people who would believe in God regardless of whether religion was there or not. I think people need to be taught or influenced to believe in God, just as they do to be homophobic.

John Paul II said that the Church recognises that they do not choose their Homosexual Condition and for most of them it is a trial....again I am not entirely happy with the wording, but the idea is that homophobia is frowned upon, if not expressly forbidden by the Catholic Church.

I appreciate that the Church doesn't want homosexuals to be victimised but if the bottom line is that homosexuality is frowned upon, if not expressly forbidden then it would still mean that it's not considered "right"... I find it very difficult to distinguish between that standpoint and homophobia. (Sorry for cutting all the positive statements but this is going to be pretty long already :p)

Personally I think that the Church is struggling with it's own doctrine and how that informs modern Catholics, like most organisations of it's size and scale it is often somewhat anachronistic when compared to the actual beliefs and positions of it's congregation, the apparent contradiction of Cardinal Ratzinger illustrates my opinion...but it is changing, slowly, but changing nonetheless. There are Catholic Theologians and Cardinals that support the full acceptance and reinterpretation of Scripture and therefore doctrine, and others who oppose that. Time will tell.

Well if history is anything to go by, it's likely the official stance will come around to that of society at large so I suppose we can hope it'll be sooner rather than later.

I am not excusing religion, what I am doing is giving an example that it is not only religion that can be used to justify prejudice or the promotion of such and therefore the call to remove Religion or a world without religion would not, in all likelihood, be any better....it could, given the inherent strictures in most religions be somewhat worse, because religion, as well as being a tool to justify prejudice, it can be a tool to be used to combat prejudice.

That may be... I'd like to see a world without any hate or discrimination and if there are any forms of justification that can be done away with, be they religious, cultural or political, I'd like to see steps taken to do so. I'm not advocating a world without religion but I do think there are parts of religion that aren't particularly nice and if I remember correctly from your other posts, you agree with me on this.

Manifesting itself in the State paradigm....so it made prejudice against homosexuality acceptable, those that would have been open to prejudice have an outlet for it, those that are not open to such prejudices would not.....the example was more to do with the differences or similarities between homophobia in Religion and Homophobia in a non-religious environment to illustrate that people will justify and manifest their prejudices in other ways if religion is not open to them. It is a factor of Human Nature, not of belief in God. Over time (since the death of Mao) the Chinese State have softened their approach toward homosexuality on a State Level. So while Communism (like Religion) can be used as a tool to promote prejudice, it is dependent on the interpretation of the individual as to how that manifests itself.....unfortunately with examples such as China and Stalinist Russia, the absolutism inherent in the power-base meant that the will and prejudices of the few manifested as widespread oppression and persecution of homosexuals...religion generally avoids this as it has doctrine that supersedes the authority of the individual.

I think I'm just an idealist. I'd like to think that without it being suggested or taught, very few people would think that homosexuality is wrong or immoral - it would just be accepted as a part of nature. I think it takes some sort of influence to start people thinking in a homophobic way and I imagine if a Government says that it's illegal or wrong to have homosexual sex or does nothing to prevent homosexuals from being prejudiced against, that's likely to actually cause prejudice against them. I think it's wrong for a Government to take that standpoint for those reasons and for the same reasons I'm against the Church's stance as above.

Just to add, thank you Castiel, I appreciate the time you put into your posts and I always learn something new.
 
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Castiel, still waiting for you to reply to this post...


If that was completely true then you'd expect to see levels of homophobia roughly equal in all parts of the world regardless of their religious devotion.

This is quite obviously not the case where levels of homophobia in large parts of Africa, the Middle East and the Southern States of America are clearly more prevalent than in any Western, more secular society.

Pointing out China's record on homophobia doesn't detract from that observable fact, it just shows that you can have homophobia without religion which no one is disputing.

If religion plays no part and has no increasing effect of levels of homophobia then why do we clearly see greater levels of it in both the public and governmental attitudes of the more religious societies and conversely why are gay rights held up more principally in secular ones?
 
I agree with the church, homosexuality is wrong. Fair enough people can't help being gay but they shouldn't practice it. Gay couples can't have sex properly and can't have children, they will be less good and therefore less happy.

I don't agree with circumcision though, I think it was a way of keeping clean in old times. not a good idea any more.
 
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I agree with the church, homosexuality is wrong. Fair enough people can't help being gay but they shouldn't practice it. Gay couples can't have sex properly and can't have children, they will be less good and therefore less happy.

What about men with low sperm count? Or infertile women? Are they wrong?
 
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