Getting back into movie surround sound... best bang for buck?

[Richdog]

EDIT - UPDATE 02.06.2021

Well some years later my Denon X1200 has been a trooper. I now upgraded the fronts with some Klipsch R-625FA and moved the Zensor 3 to the back:

Front speakers: Klipsch R-625FA
Surround speakers: Dali Zensor 3
Subwoofer: SVS SB-12 NDS
AVR: Denon AVR-X1200W
TV: LG 65" OLED CX

Sounds very nice.

EDIT - UPDATE 15.05.2016

Photo of my now-complete home cinema:

Spoiler

Still need to tidy things up, but wow... very pleased with it. Full list of components is:

Front speakers: Dali Zensor 3
Surround speakers: Dali Zensor Pico
Subwoofer: SVS SB-12 NDS
AVR: Denon AVR-X1200W
TV: Samsung UE65JS8550

Love it.

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ORIGINAL POST FOR REFERENCE PURPOSES:

Dear Great OCUK Unwashed,

After selling my Pioneer VSX70 and Quad L-ite 5.1 system and buying a soundbar I thought I was done with the world of semi-audiophilia. Now, after completely re-organising my living room, I am pining for a return to decent sound where I listened to my music with at least some sense of awe and wonderment. I theoretically have a good budget, but I want to keep my spending under control and not do anything silly.

Additionally, I live in an apartment where the walls/floors are not uber thick so can't blast the neighbours into oblivion, and would ideally like to be able to manage without a sub (I know, I know) hence why I would like floor-standing speakers for the front.

My living room is approximately 5m x 4m (ish), and I am looking to get a wood/walnut finish to the speakers to make them feel warmer and blend with my furniture.

So far I am thinking the following:

---------------------------

AV receiver: Denon AVR-X1200W (gets excellent reviews and has Atmos) - £250 http://www.trustedreviews.com/denon-avr-x1200w-review

Front speakers: Q-acoustics 3050i floor-standing speakers - £500 http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3050/review

Rear speakers: Q-acoustics 3010i bookshelf speakers on stands - £130

Center speaker: Q-acoustics 3090c - £130

Total spend: £1070

---------------------------

For the AV receiver I can find no bad reviews of the Denon AVR-X1200W and it is Atmos-enabled for future upgradeability. It seems to pack a lot of punch into a good size and price and for my size room I think would be perfect.

In terms of speakers I have chosen Q-acoustics because they seem to best in this price range, and they are also damn fine looking speakers in the Walnut cases. However I am open to suggestions for other brands and am also willing to buy used.

Suggestions on a postcard please.

 

[Richdog]

The above sounds pretty nice to me but as you're aware the lack of a sub will hurt, floor standers with help but they're not a sub.

Yeah I know what you mean mate but my reason for not getting the Q-acoustics 3070S sub is because it is pretty much the only thing that the reviews complain about:

"Subwoofer could do with firming up" http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3000-series-51-cinema-pack/review

"Sub isn't as wonderful as the speakers" https://www.avforums.com/review/q-acoustics-3000-5-1-speaker-system-review.11694

I have seen there is a package at my local place that has all of the above except the sub for £870. So I guess I can start with that package and then add a better sub later after I do some research.

 

[Richdog]

Then get a different sub... trying to run any form of 5.1 without a sub will be a massive loss as you'll be missing all of the lower frequencies. There will also be ways of setting it up to help mitigate it upsetting the neighbours.

Yeah you're right, I think I will.

It might actually make more sense to go with Q2000 series at the EOL price and spend more money on getting a better receiver...

Everything I have read says it's not worth pumping money into electronics, but into the speakers instead.

 

[Richdog]

BTW guys I am certainly open to feedback on speaker choice and I appreciate and take into account all the comments even if I disagree on some small points. I'm certainly open to having my mind changed if good evidence is presented, especially with regards to other brands. I am also wondering if floorstanders are worth it or if its better to get bookshelf?

The point is...whilst the Q3000 series is better than the Q2000 series, the performance different won't be that huge, as oppose the the difference in terms of the amp between an entry level receiver at around £200 mark compare to a mid-high range receiver at around £500-£600 mark.

I see what you mean, but professional reviews I have read have pretty much unanimously state that the 3000 series is a discernible upgrade in terms of performance, though I haven't yet personally found them to listen to to compare. I think it is certainly better to put a little more money into speakers that I will end up keeping for a long time rather than AV receiver which can change substantially as technology progresses.

At the very least, I am sure that the Denon AVR-X1200W will struggle to drive the floorstander at full-range when the receiver is pushing the other channels at the same time...you might as well get another pair of bookshelf instead for the front if you are going for that receiver. If you are sticking with the Floorstander choice, then I would suggest spending a bit more and stretch to at least the elder sibling the Denon AVR-X2200W.

From the trustedreviews review: http://www.trustedreviews.com/denon-avr-x1200w-review

The price tag and power rating may be relatively modest, but it has no trouble driving a big, powerful speaker system – in this case, a £5k Monitor Audio Gold setup.
Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/denon-avr-x1200w-review#jVCvWKSjQ8EozTVK.99

That says to me it should be ok if it can drive those speakers. Also the predecessor to this receiver, the Denon AVR-X1100W, was also recommended in audioholics ideal $2500 system http://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/2500-5.1-channel-recommended-system

Have you considered just going 2.0 stereo rather than 5.0? A decent stereo amp and stereo speakers may suit you better.

I watch a ton of movies too, so 5.1 is definitely preferable.

Food for thought, Q7000i?

Thats what I went for in the end for my x4200 as the ain't to big.
The sound is astounding given the size, They was on offer for 650 for the full 5.1 package.

Though looking now their back up to 800 +

Edit, I would have to agree with Marine too, No point having huge expensive speakers if the amp can't drive them .

 

[Richdog]

I've read a very worrying thread on AV forums about Q-Acoustics quality control, looks like some customers had a nightmare with their subs https://www.avforums.com/threads/q-acoustics-3070s-sub-problem.1955402/

It's a little off-putting as I may be buying from a dealer with low turnover of stock so may get a dud if I got one.

Have you ever actually tried a movie in 2.0? I'd suggest that a well sorted 2.0 system can actually sound better than an entry level 5.1/0, especially if you're doing without the sub. A decent second hand stereo amp that may have been £500+ new for half that, and well matched floorstanders that could have been over £1k new, and your looking at an extremely well sorted system that wouldn't miss a sub.

Hi Jano, yes I have heard a movie in 2.0, but as stated in the OP, I used to have a decent and respectable 5.1 system that handled music and movies very well so I know what I like and am looking for a 5.1. Thanks anyway though!

I am willing to up budget a little if necessary, but my room is not huge and I can't crank things to crazy levels so there will be diminishing returns with my spending at some point.

 

[Richdog]

I would say pull the trigger on what you have lined up (X2100w and the Q 3000s), they are tried and tested equipment and I doubt you'll be disappointed at all. If you can accommodate it then I think you'd be silly not to go for the floorstanders, and if the amp really can't drive them (I'd trust that trustedreviews excerpt), you can always return them I'm sure.

If you feel the need to add a sub you can always add that later, right? A sub doesn't need to match the brand or model at all, so you can shop freely further down the line.

Yup, agree 100% about the sub.

Question though, do you really think the 5050 floorstanders are worth it over the 3020 bookshelves... I mean if technically the only real benefit is bass response then when I add a sub that benefit will be negated, right? Also I understand that floorspeakers need to be further away from a wall than bookshelves?

3050 review http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3050/review

3020 review http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3020/review

 

[Richdog]

I must say I LOVE these Monitor audio bronze, and the rear speakers designed to go flush against the wall are genius. http://www.whathifi.com/monitor-audio/bronze-b5-av/review
I have also found them in a local online shop so I think I am now going to go for a set of these.

I said it can drive Monitor Audio Gold speakers fine, but they didn't mention if the front is a pair of Floor-stander or bookshelf.

A Floor-stander is fine, if you were not going Full-range and pass the handling of the low frequency/bass below 80Hz (for example) over to the sub to handle; but if you were going Full-range for the Floor-stander letting it go all the way down to its lowest rated frequency, it can become overbearing for the front channel amps and making the sound become distorted.

But I think I have some good news if you have your mind set on the X1200W...I have had a quick look at its manual, it would seem it has the bi-amp feature:
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX1200W/EU/EN/WBSPSYtweharpi.php#WBSPMLenkawunn

Since you are only going for 5.1 not 7.1 set up, you can actually wire the amp for the surround back channel to help with powering the front channel speakers, so you'd essentially having one pair of amp powering the Tweeters and one pair of amp powering the Woofers instead of powering them all using single pair of amp of the front channel.

Thanks for the info chap, good to know.

 

[Richdog]

Not really sure on alternatives to the options you've made but more in response to the sub query. Have a look at BK Subs http://www.bkelec.com/ British made to order, VERY well received and one to fit every price budget, if you don't mind a preset colour/finish they also sell through ebay for quicker delivery.

Thanks but I have now got my heart set on the Monitor Bronze system and the sub gets very good feedback.

 

[Richdog]

Yes the Monitor Bronze are very nice speakers.

Yeah they look absolutely lovely, and apparently sound it too! Will see what price my local dealer can offer me for the full set...

Just out of interest, would you get floorstanders rather than front bookshelves with the Monitor Bronze?

 

[Richdog]

Shame, the Q Acoustics are awesome

Nice man... how do you find them? Did you post a mini review anywhere on the forum that I can read?

 

[Richdog]

To be honest I'm no audiophile, I just read what other audiophiles think in reviews.

It's considerably better than my Kef 2005.1 egg speakers though. I tend to use them more for Blu-rays and gaming than music. Spotify sounds great as well though.

You don't need to be an audiophile to give your opinions mate, far form it! How do you find them for higher quality music (non-Spotify)?

 

[Richdog]

Go for it! Great speakers and look nice in Walnut... I have the older white cone versions and the also the rears and their also really good and come with a mounting template so easy to put in wall....

P.s I don't have sub and don't miss it....

Cheers, I'm more excited about them the more I read. You have the the floorstanders then?

Sadly I can't put anything in a wall... I live in a rented apartment.

 

[Richdog]

Yep I have the floorstanders and I can't fault them...when I added the rears it seemed to add more bass to whole thing anyway so did not bother with sub...but I'm sure it would be even better with....

Yeah, I think I shall go for the full package with sub all in one go if the discount is decent.

 

[Richdog]

I don't live in the UK so access to used goods (especially the more specialist brands) is very limited unless I can persuade someone to send overseas, and even then of something goes wrong it's doubly a pain. To buy used I have to either greatly limit my choices, and I'm not the type who likes living with things I'm not completely sold on, regardless of the potential savings.

As such, I'll go for a set of Monitor Bronze and am sure from everything that I have read and heard that I'll be very happy with them.

 

[Richdog]

Definitely go for the floor standers, I went from MA BX2 to MA BX6 and there was a huge difference.

Good to hear, thanks! Will go for the BX5 rather than BX6 though.

What do you think of their sound overall, is it neutral? Also how do they do at lower volumes?

 

[Richdog]

P

are you getting a sub?

the bronze 6's handle bass better.

also when it comes to setting a crossover point i heard halve an octave higher then the minimum for the speaker is best.

so each set of speakers will have a different threshold. for example the floorstanders could be 60hz and the rear speakers 100hz. i've plucked these numbers out of thin air. you need to calculate what half an octave higher than their minimum spec actually is.

you shouldn't set it to their minimum as usually they cannot handle it at higher volumes.

Yup I'm planning on getting the full kit with sub as the discount should make it worth it. I'm pretty sure this half an octave wont be overly noticeable for the my uses and that the kit will work well together as it's designed to.

 

[Richdog]

the kit is basically all the same range. no different to someone buying them all separately so long as the centre matches the front r and l the surrounds it doesn't matter what you use so long as it's comparable. it doesn't even need to be from the same make. so long as you use matching sets. so you couldn't buy 1 speaker for back r and then another for back l.

also setting thresholds is done by the user. the kit won't have them set up properly. it will just be stuck on default.

basically the amp could be used with any of a number of a million different speakers. therefore you have to set it up right for your speakers.

therefore yes you do need to set the thresholds yourself. and my advice would be to read up on how to do that.

I'm buying all monitor bronze so using different speakers doesn't factor into the equation anyway and is a moot point for me. But I'll set make an effort to set them up to correct levels etc when I get them.

 

[Richdog]

Well, after more research and soul searching I have now decided on the following Dali Zensor speaker combo:

Fronts: Dali zensor 3
Rears: Dali zensor 1
Center: Dali Vokal
Sub: E-9F

I can get it a little cheaper than the equivalent MA Bronze package and from a more reputable dealer. Feedback on them is also better than the MA Bronzes. I'll see if I can find a place to listen to them where I live...

 

[Richdog]

they aren't better according to this

http://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/best-speaker-packages

or is that a different dali package?

I have read a ton of user feedback in various forums including people who compared them both directly and while its all subjective, there are a ton of people who said they opted for the dalis as they sounded warmer and the bronze was more clinical.

I specced the Dali Zensor 3 as Fronts and not the 1s which are part of that package you linked to. I can also upgrade the sub to the E-12F for a little more.

Meh anyway all of this is speculation on my part and I basically need to stfu and try and audition them both somehow or I'll never be sure. That will be my mission next week.

 

[Richdog]

Good stuff, going for a decent setup will really be a step up. MA Bronze speakers are nice, used to ow an old set of B2 bookshelfs.

Well.............. that sub looks truly pants. £400 for a 9" driver with piddly 170W amplifier is about as bad value as a sub can get.

Please do not waste your money on that crap.

BK subs are far superior in every respect, Sonny has got some great kit for nice prices. A simple substitution would be the BK XLS400 for the Dali sub and would quite simply **** all over it. How large is your room?

Should you want to consider other direct to consume manufacturers then have a look at the XTZ subs or the new Arendal brand. Look in the sub section over on avforums for more info.

https://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers.127/

For around £450-£800 (model dependent) you'll get yourself a 500W sub with a 12" (XTZ) or 13.8" driver (Arendal).

I personally have x2 or the XTZ 1x12 subs, which truly rock the living room to pieces. But their new 12.17 sub looks to be incredible value at £450 and comes in both black/white. These are another step up from the BK mentioned above and FYI I've owned a BK Gemini & Monolith.

My room size and intended use is in the OP...definately not seeking room shaking and neighbour annoying bass, just tightly controlled and refined bass that will handle anything I throw at it.

In fairness, while the dali sub is by no means anything approach monster, nothing I have read suggests that it is completely pants or crap. Reviews that I have read are pretty much universally positive from both critics and users alike. As I said, I can also upgrade to the Dali E12F for not so much extra so it's an option.

Having said that, I read that BK do ship subs to my country for 50 quid, and that cost is probably offset by not paying UK VAT. I also note they have a new model, the the BK P12-300SB. How does it compare in real terms to the Xls400? http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm

I appreciate all the advice and will put the BK sub on my short list now I know they ship to me.