Getting into development after University.

[drew64]

Hello.

Quick backstory, I did a course at university: "Computer Games and Visual Effects". Which sold itself as a vocational way to get into the games industry, 'tailored after consulting with developers' etc etc etc.

Long story short, course was a disaster, The lecturer quit to go take a course himself, and I'm still arguing with the university.

Because of all that, All of my skills have been self-taught, and I ended up as a jack-of-all-trades, with no real defined strengths.

Despite this i managed to get a job in the industry, which turned out to confirm all the horror stories I'd heard from others, And after the company folded i didnt want to stay in the industry.


Sob story over.

I'm currently looking where to go now, career wise, and I'm weighing up between Web Design/Development, and Software Development as they're both areas im really interested in.

I've been teaching myself code (Java and C# currently) in an attempt to try and get into development.
But I feel incredibly overwhelmed by the amount of information to take in:

Learning code is one thing, as ive done a fair amount of scripting before.

But learning how to actually develop full programs seems like it would require far more knowledge, that teaching myself may not achieve.

What I wanted to ask was:

• How hard is it, to learn Web/software development without academic teaching?
  -How much would not having a Computer science Degree hurt me?
  - Do the Microsoft certified Technical Qualifications Hold much weight?
  
• As someone who would describe his strength as being in the Design aspect. What would be the better Option (web or software development)
• Are there any resources i should check out?
  - I've been trawling the web, but without knowing what im looking for, I'm not having much luck.
• Lastly, are proffesional qualifications/Certifications actually worth the money?
  - Speaking to several people i know who are programmers, they have said No, whereas the internet is about 50/50.
  
  
  If you've read this far, thank you.
  

 

[topbanana]

- How hard is it, to learn Web/software development without academic teaching?
Depends very much on your aptitude and how much effort you put in.

-How much would not having a Computer science Degree hurt me?
Probably not much, as long as you get your foot on the ladder. From then on, people care more about experience than a degree.

- Do the Microsoft certified Technical Qualifications Hold much weight?
Not really. no one I work with has current certification, but they are a good way of ensuring you've covered a decent breadth of the topic.

- As someone who would describe his strength as being in the Design aspect. What would be the better Option (web or software development)
Web development is just a type of software development. If you are a stronger designer than developer, then maybe you should look for design jobs.

-Are there any resources i should check out? I've been trawling the web, but without knowing what im looking for, I'm not having much luck.
First you need to choose a platform, and app type. You can't learn everything. Choose Java or C#, and web/desktop/server-side. I would suggest C# / web personally. Then someone can suggest a reading list for you. Quality books are much better than blogs or websites.

- Lastly, are proffesional qualifications/Certifications actually worth the money?
Answered above

 

[Cycrow]

What type of development are you actually looking at getting into ?

more and more companies are looking for degrees but you dont always require one to get a job. The hardest part is always getting your foot in the door.
once you start getting experience all your qualifications become irrelevant.

The games industry it a lot harder to get into than general software development with a lot more competition for jobs.

But before you even think about getting a development job, you really do need to learn how to develop. No one will take on someone who doesn't have knowledge about development, its not really the type of industry where you can start knowing nothing and learn on the job.

Try to figure out what area you think u'll be best suited at and then focus on that. Design and development are pretty different really

If you want to get into Coding, there are tons of resources online to help you learn. I taught myself how to code full programs and games before the internet was really about

 

[topbanana]

If you want to get into Coding, there are tons of resources online to help you learn. I taught myself how to code full programs and games before the internet was really about

I sometimes wonder if I'd have taught myself half as much if I'd had the distraction of the internet.

 

[ZombieFan]

Just out of curiosity, what was your role at the games studio?

 

[drew64]

Thanks for the responses.

Thinking Software and Web development were different disciplines, shows how much ive confused myself trying to research. I blame Reed.com's course advisors...


Let's say I want to focus on C#/Web.

Any recommendations?
I had quite a bit of luck with Sam's teach yourself Python, but the C# book seems to have far worse reviews.


Cheers Again.

Just out of curiosity, what was your role at the games studio?

It was a small studio so my role was wider than usual.
But my job was making and implementing Visual effects. (fire, smoke, fluids, sparks etc.)
In most situations, that persons job would just be to, for example:
make smoke trail for a rocket, then make an explosion.
Whereas my role would be to make those, then get them attached to the rocket, and set up what triggers the explosions etc.
Simple example, other instances were far more complex, and the game engine was rage inducing.
Probably much more info than you needed.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Have you considered learning C++? I see many development based companies ask for fluency in C++ as it's generally a great program to learn considering it contains all the concepts that are within pretty much every other programming language only the syntax is slightly different. To be honest though, I can't imagine that C# is much different - so either way, you'll be learning an excellent industry standard language.

 

[Haircut]

Have you considered learning C++?

To be honest though, I can't imagine that C# is muchdifferent

Really? Have you ever actually done either of them?
Other than syntax they're pretty damn different

 

[Cycrow]

There tends to be a lot more jobs available for C++, but many of them would be looking for someone with a lot of knowledge of c++.

i think someone trying to get into the industry without previous knowledge, c# or java might be a better option. Especially if you looking into the web side of things.

You can of course start to learn c++ as well on the side and have more jobs open up in the future. But its a big investment to start with, especially if you not really sure u want to get into it, most people who get jobs in c++ will have either done it previously as a hobby or done a course at uni (or both)

I've not generally used books when learning programming, i found it easier just to do it, get some examples/tutorials to follow through to make a basic program, you could also get some simple programs and just edit and play around them to help you learn.

Software and web development can be different disiplines and can use different languages and such, but there is some cross over between them. Just make sure you read the job description thou, as some web development might mean things like HTML5/PHP/ASP, etc and some might be other things like Java or Backend programming. As a designer, you might find web development more to your liking

 

[doiks14]

How hard is it, to learn Web/software development without academic teaching?

There are plenty of books to learn from that should give you enough guidance
on what to learn without academic teaching, although the theoretical stuff that might be prove some use such as measuring algorithm complexity, how program compilation is done i.e. developing a parser/language processing, the current methods used that try to solve the "big data" problem, automated planners, how a neural network works etc. might be a bit more difficult to learn on your own as they're quite dry - they are however, not completely essential.

How much would not having a Computer science Degree hurt me?

Would hurt at first as it would be difficult to try and get into the industry, however, if you prove yourself with a good enough portfolio, you might just be in luck - from the senior developers that I've talked to, qualifications become less relevant as you gain experience.

Do the Microsoft certified Technical Qualifications Hold much weight?

Can't give a definite answer - but from my experience, having no certification is not held against you, it's just cherry on top of the cake.

As someone who would describe his strength as being in the Design aspect. What would be the better Option (web or software development)

I would say Web Development would be a better choice for you as you can be a bit more creative with UI - with Software, the focus mostly is functionality over aesthetics and software generally sticks with traditional UI that's proven to work and look and feel is almost always meant to match the look and feel of the OS it's running on.

Are there any resources i should check out?
I've been trawling the web, but without knowing what im looking for, I'm not having much luck.

What are you wanting to learn?

Lastly, are proffesional qualifications/Certifications actually worth the money?
Speaking to several people i know who are programmers, they have said No, whereas the internet is about 50/50.

Professional certifications may prove useful for some company, but as I've mentioned before - it's not essential, it's just just cherry on top of the cake.

edit: Just to add, I've met a few developers without a degree in computing science - the best developer in the previous company I've worked for did not have a degree.

 

[doiks14]

Have you considered learning C++? I see many development based companies ask for fluency in C++ as it's generally a great program to learn considering it contains all the concepts that are within pretty much every other programming language only the syntax is slightly different. To be honest though, I can't imagine that C# is much different - so either way, you'll be learning an excellent industry standard language.

I don't completely agree with this. C# and C++ are quite different.. Java however is pretty close to C#.

C++ for learning isn't really recommended by most as the language itself is huge !! Pointers, writing code in a procedural way, global scope etc. are quite fun to mess around with but can lead to bad practice if used without guidance - so the fact that it's less restrictive can also lead to bad practices in the long run.. things learned cannot be easily unlearned..

 

[radderfire]

If you enjoy design and are good at it, there are lots of jobs for talented front end web designers. You can either get jobs where you just do Photoshop/Illustrator design work, for someone else to create the HTML/CSS, or you can learn the HTML/CSS too. The creative design ability is in demand, but you need a natural apptitude, real creative flair, and patience for dealing with clients. To learn, see:

http://www.webref.eu/web-design-tutorials.php

 

[topbanana]

Let's say I want to focus on C#/Web.

Any recommendations?

OK, so there are lots of different things you need to learn. If you read all these books at least once, you'll be well on your way.

The language
C# in depth, Jon Skeet. New version is imminent.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/C-Depth-Jon-Skeet/dp/161729134X

The runtime and base class library
http://www.amazon.co.uk/CLR-Via-4th-Developer-Reference/dp/0735667454

ASP.Net MVC (almost certainly)
You probably don't need a book for this, it's quite straightforward. Otherwise, this is good:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-ASP-NET-MVC-Adam-Freeman/dp/1430242361/

HTML / CSS / JavaScript / JQuery / some other JS framerwork
(I'm not an expert on these subjects)

Unit testing:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Art-Unit-Testing-Examples/dp/1933988274

Dependency Injection:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dependency-Injection-NET-Mark-Seemann/dp/1935182501/

 

[doiks14]

Dependency Injection:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dependency-Injection-NET-Mark-Seemann/dp/1935182501/

+1 for Dependency Injection in .NET

For JS:

Professional Javascript for Web Developers which I am currently reading through, it quick covers the basics, how prototype works, the DOM, AJAX, best practices etc. This is probably worth having as reference...
Not a light read, its almost 900 pages, I tend to skip the parts I already fully understand.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professiona...ds=professional+javascript+for+web+developers

JavaScript Design Patterns
http://addyosmani.com/resources/essentialjsdesignpatterns/book/#designpatternsjavascript
this can be bought as a book if wanted, although I prefer the html version because you can copy and paste the example to the js console directly to inspect and have a play around.

Of course, you'd also want to learn how to use a framework once you're done learning javascript such as jQuery - this is very easy to understand once you understand the language itself - I know a lot of people who knows how to use jQuery but don't quite understand JavaScript very well.

General programming:

The Pragmatic Programmer - beautiful read fell in love with this books - full of tips, funny references, analogies and real world examples.
This is not technical - this book is more philosophical. It reads like a novel.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pragmatic-Programmer-Andrew-Hunt/dp/020161622X/

Growing Object Oriented Software
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Growing-Object-Oriented-Software-Guided-Signature/dp/0321503627/

Code Complete
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Code-Complete-Practical-Handbook-Construction/dp/0735619670/

Mastering Regular Expressions
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mastering-Regular-Expressions-Powerful-Techniques/dp/1565922573/

Head First Design Patterns - I absolutely loved this book, very easy read with the way it's presented,
although you probably need to read on more design patterns in depth afterwards as this only covers a few design patterns
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Head-First-Design-Patterns-Freeman/dp/0596007124/

Design patterns elements of reusable object-oriented software
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Design-patterns-elements-reusable-object-oriented/dp/0201633612/

 

[Fuggan]

I have just started learning coding myself too, hoping to become a web developer within a couple of years.

www.codecademy.com

Is AMAZING. I literally started with the HTML course, then moved onto the CSS. Took probably a couple of weeks to complete in my spare time. I did those two and then did a bit of my own reading/using other sites around the topics then decided to put everything I've learnt together and practice so I built myself a CV website. (PM me if you want to check it out)

I've just started going through the JavaScript courses this week and it's getting a bit tougher but I'm still enjoying it. I'm going to keep referring back to my own website and practicing stuff I learn on there.

I'd definitely recommend that website, though. It's by no means going to make you a pro but it is really easy to follow and quick to pick up the basics. Will help give you an insight into each language.

Hope that helps.

p.s if you do decide to use it, try a program like Sublime Text 2 to practice in. I'm using it at the moment and it's fantastic!

 

[doiks14]

I've not generally used books when learning programming, i found it easier just to do it, get some examples/tutorials to follow through to make a basic program, you could also get some simple programs and just edit and play around them to help you learn.

Not going through a book isn't bad - and practice definitely makes you more proficient in writing with the language and actually developing applications, nothing can replace practicing - HAS TO BE DONE.

Books do provide the advantage of having accurate information though and opens you to question your own work i.e. if what you're doing is "good", was it really the best way of approaching the problem? what are the alternatives? why is this approach better than the other? it is easy to just write some code without having to think whether what you've done is the most effective way of doing it. It's a dry process, but in the end of the day, it's not meant to replace practicing - it's a guide.

For example, people that do not understand the big O notation would just write an algorithm that works without theoretical knowledge of how the algorithm would perform - if it works, then it solves the problem... but is it really the most effective? Of course the big O notation doesn't always show real world performance, that's why there's benchmark driven approach if you want to focus on performance.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

I don't completely agree with this. C# and C++ are quite different.. Java however is pretty close to C#.

C++ for learning isn't really recommended by most as the language itself is huge !! Pointers, writing code in a procedural way, global scope etc. are quite fun to mess around with but can lead to bad practice if used without guidance - so the fact that it's less restrictive can also lead to bad practices in the long run.. things learned cannot be easily unlearned..

My bad then - I'm pretty proficient at C++, but I've never even looked at C#; I'd assumed that they're similar, my mistake.

 

[Ace Modder]

I'm in the same position as you. But for very different reasons.

I want to learn coding for my own fun and cannot afford to quit work (which I love anyway) as I'm 32 and have a family to look after.

Anyway I started reading up on c++ and looking at basic tutorials. Only started last night.

So far I have written 3 console programs. I feel that 3D work and such like will be a million light years away. I think that basic Windows application work shouldn't be too difficult short term. I'm seeing what level I hit in a few months though.

The biggest problem for some people I reckon would be being able to sit and not want to fire up steam and play a game etc.

 

[doiks14]

The biggest problem for some people I reckon would be being able to sit and not want to fire up steam and play a game etc.

Uninstall all games or install a linux distro so that you have very limited game options even if you want to install some. Install rescuetime to keep track of your productivity and identify your habits. Adopt a methodology where you keep track of your aims and your current progress repeatedly i.e. some form of agile methodology - the most important thing is sticking to it and being consistent.. All these things are easier said than done

 

[DireEmblem]

to learn programming/development, get involved in some real projects with meaning...

overclockers used to do competitions not that long ago, where people competed to make 'something', but really you want to have a look on the likes of sourceforge etc(my knowledge is a bit dated).

You'll get to see the project briefs, the way others code, how to build 'modular' code to pull together, and the mistakes many people make in development.

I would also consider prince2.

From a vague memory, i used to use a program called posseidon, and netbeans:-

http://www.gentleware.com/products.html
https://netbeans.org/

Do your own investigation. There are even decent books out there, with chapter projects, but what I would advise in most, is when you program, make everything modular and build your own code library to pull on in future.