Getting that first job as a software developer.

Pho said:
I graduated in 2008 :). I don't mean my degree was worthless, far from it - I mean I didn't have to use my degree result to help stand out from others to get a job, and now that I'm in (the industry) my experience is worth far more than my degree.

How have things changed nowadays? Genuine question.
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You may feel your skills are more important than your degree and you may be right, but not having a degree on your CV means an instant rejection form most job applications. It is a very easy way to filter candidates.
 
Gambisk said:
I can only really echo the statements above, look for graduate and junior level roles. Any company that has these schemes knows the score and will not be expecting the world, the good ones will mentor and train you helping you to progress quickly as its beneficial to them and you. I can honestly say I learnt more in my first 6 months as a graduate developer than I did at 3 years of Uni.
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Basically this for me too. If you are lucky like I was you will have a developer take you under their wing and help you out a lot. a lot of developers dont do this though, but because he did I now try and pass it forward to all the new devs we get in.
Id say for the first 6 months to a year I felt like I was more of a hindrance than a help and just fluffing my way through. Now (after 3 years) Im a team leader and still feel like I need to know a lot more than I do, but my google-fu is strong so I get by.

Edit:Also before applying for any role do research on the company and the software they make and tailor your CV for that. Such as we use a lot of SQL and C# here so having those 2 technologies at the top would put you in better stead that someone who puts that they know a lot of Java and a bit of SQL.
 
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It's a while ago now, but I graduated in 2001 with a BSc in Computer Science and Mathematics. The only language we were taught was Java, and it became abundantly clear that the majority of the companies looking for graduates at the time wanted C or C++ (it's a bit different these days). I interviewed for my first choice company who developed embedded software for cars in C, and it became abundantly clear that they weren't looking for someone who had learned C at university, but were looking for someone with the ability to learn, to work as part of a team and who had good problem solving skills. They offered me a job as a graduate software engineer, and 14(!) years later I'm a senior software engineer, earning a decent living in a market that now has good demand for people with my skills.

What you need to accept as a graduate is that much of what you learned at university isn't applicable in the real world. Your learning really hasn't started yet. What university does for you is give you the skills you need to be able to get up to speed quickly in your new job. It shows that you have the ability to learn and apply yourself, and that you can operate as part of a group.

As meandu says, a good company should have a mentor programme for graduates, and it's something worth asking about at an interview. It's the thing that helped me the most when I was starting out.
 
If you are able to live with your folks or elsewhere almost free... look into an internship.. that will give you valuable experience on paper. However, I don't really see why you shouldn't be able to get a paying job as a software dev.

Also.. as the guys above mention... problem solving and thinking of ways around problems rather than going straight are key to development. Also.. taking the time to think things through and seeking others opinions are highly valuable skills to have. Never underestimate the power of talking to people, or walking away from a problem to think about something else, or relax for a little bit. Often that's when things are solved.

As for your feelings. Honestly.. if you don't try you don't get. Even if you feel like a fraud, going to interviews and finding out the questions they ask really helps in selling yourself for other roles later. Call it practice. Soon you'll know exactly what to say and even will have a learnt more from it.
 
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There are a lot of people in a lot of jobs that feel like frauds that are just about to be, 'found out', ask city analysts.

But as said you need to apply now, don't let a rejection break your spirits though.

Google some interview questions, here are a couple of well respected books, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cracking-Coding-Interview-Programming-Questions/dp/098478280X http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cracking-Te...ZUQ_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429542608&sr=1-2.

Make sure you read up on algorithms, here's a great book, http://www.amazon.com/Algorithm-Des...7202/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297127794&sr=8-1

And read some of Steve Yegge stuff, this is a good article for example,

https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/five-essential-phone-screen-questions

and


http://steve-yegge.blogspot.co.uk/2006/03/truth-about-interviewing.html


and

http://blog.codinghorror.com/getting-the-interview-phone-screen-right/
 
Hello from a Swindon Web Developer.

We use Visual Studio, C#, SQL Server in the company I work for.

I started out on an IT Helpdesk (through a recruitment agent) and worked my way into development through different companies by applying for jobs.

I've failed enough technical tests in interviews to know I'm not the best developer in the world. But I understand problems and offer a quick turnaround on fixes/solutions. I work well in a team and have a good general interest in I.T.
 
Interesting thread. I've done some modules with Open Uni but am planning also going the developer way (I've just started)

I'm curious what course modules you have chosen and how you found them? Exams too? I'm looking at M256 and M250 next.
 
M256 was easy enough, especially if you have previous Java (or any C-family language really) experience.

The weirdest thing I found about the coding exams was writing out code by hand - and not having the IDE there for syntax checking! It really makes you think about what you're writing.
 
I think the importance of a degree depends a lot on whether you're looking to do web development at a digital agency or software development at a large company.

I've been a web dev for 12 years now and my degree has been almost meaningless since I got my first job. I've also been involved in hiring for the last 5 years and if you have more than 1 or 2 years experience that instantly trumps any degrees you may or may not have.

That's not to say that degrees aren't worth it, you have to learn somehow!
 
!bluetonic! said:
Hello from a Swindon Web Developer.
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Yey another Swindoner. Did you find it difficult looking for work in Swindon? I look occasionally but am never sure what I should apply for if I was in a position to. I am currently a postman and we should be moving to a 4 day week which will be perfect as I will have 3 modules to study at once starting from October. I couldn't move jobs now with needing all this time to do them as well.

Brummies said:
I'm curious what course modules you have chosen and how you found them? Exams too? I'm looking at M256 and M250 next.
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TU100 - Covers loads of topics, nothing in great detail. To me it seemed like a way for you to get an idea of what is involved in the different paths you can take and help you decide. No exam. Bunch of online assingnments(iCMAs) and teacher marked ones (TMAs)

M250 - I enjoyed this one. This is more coding heavy than most of the others I have done. You start at the very beginning going over all the basics and slowly introduced to more. This has an exam. It was okay, 3 hours total. A lot of code to be done by hand.

M256 - This one although has coding was more on the ideas behind software development. How do you get to the point of creating something. This theory stuff is probably some of the more important stuff you learn. Another exam with this one, same as M250 in most ways.

MU123 - Maths, bleh. Says it all ;)

MT264, - This one is VB specific. It has been enjoyable. A lot of the stuff from M250 and M256 apply here but obviously just a different language and this one incorporates GUI stuff which you don't really get to make or use in others. 4 TMAs for this one. Typically a TMA (the same for all) come around every 6 weeks and will cover the stuff you have done in those 6 weeks and stuff done before it. Actually have my exam for this one on Tuesday morning.

TT284 - Honestly, this is the worse module I have done. No exam, just an end of module assignment that is marked by the OU and not your tutor. The materials feel out dated, which is amazing because you don't get any printed materials for this because "the speed internet technology moves they would soon be out of date." Yet it covers old principles, stuff that doesn't seem to be used now, full of typos, the course seems scattered around all over the place. You dabble in lots of different things but only very briefly. I spent more time Googling for help than any other module to date. I'd find it hard to recommend this one at all. Thankfully I sent my final assignment off early and don't intend to look back until I get my result.

jsmoke said:
Google some interview questions, here are a couple of well respected books, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cracking-Coding-Interview-Programming-Questions/dp/098478280X http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cracking-Te...ZUQ_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429542608&sr=1-2.

Make sure you read up on algorithms, here's a great book, http://www.amazon.com/Algorithm-Des...7202/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297127794&sr=8-1

And read some of Steve Yegge stuff, this is a good article for example,

https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/five-essential-phone-screen-questions

and


http://steve-yegge.blogspot.co.uk/2006/03/truth-about-interviewing.html


and

http://blog.codinghorror.com/getting-the-interview-phone-screen-right/
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I have actually been looking up interview questions and what to expect. Quite often threads popup on reddit with people not long into their dev careers with what they have been through and what to expect. I have some of these bookmarked for future reference.
I have also booked places for my next modules and one of these is algorithms using Python. I knew this would be something I would need and I am using this for my free choice module.
 
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Hijacking this thread a little as I am in the same situation somewhat.

I did 8 years at university (4 years undergraduate masters, 4 years PhD), and then two years working at university as a research fellow (two jobs simultaneously here, the research fellowship and research officer working with P&G, based at the university). Essentially stuff of a physics/maths nature, programming in C/C++, GPU computing (CUDA) and parallel cpu programming (around six years experience in it).

I'm coming to the end of my research contract and I'd much rather focus on programming - do more "real life programming" as I call it. Anything goes really, I like all types of programming/scripting, from C++ to php, mySQL. There's a wealth of so many interesting things out there, web development, graphics and so on.

I've been looking at jobs but I can't really find anything suitable. Especially these days, tons of jobs for C#, Java and similar. I've done some C# as a hobby (WinForms) and found it a doddle compared to C++. Results very quickly and easily. I'd like to get round to some WPF as well. C++ seems to be quite niche now - games developing or high performance e.g. financial trading. Not surprising considering people are more interested in the end result than a product that's faster but takes longer to develop.

The problem is, jobs seem to require 2 years + commercial experience really. I've applied to a game development company over in Prague, waiting to here back as I thought that may be easier to get into, then a job over here (average wage there is £600 a month :P). I also enquired about some quite junior programming jobs in Leeds, yet never heard a response back to my informal asking.

I think that could be due to looking around Leeds. Probably not so much an issue in London, hundreds of jobs and so much opportunity. At the moment though I'm not entirely sure what I should do, and feel I need some "luck".
 
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FeFiDoh said:
Yey another Swindoner. Did you find it difficult looking for work in Swindon? I look occasionally but am never sure what I should apply for if I was in a position to. I am currently a postman and we should be moving to a 4 day week which will be perfect as I will have 3 modules to study at once starting from October. I couldn't move jobs now with needing all this time to do them as well.
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I did find it difficult. And had to work my way through Cirencester and Bristol before a job in Swindon came along.

You could always talk to a specialist IT recruitment agency and explain your position. They may be able to advise.

My Bristol job came at the right time, I was available and they were desperate. I learnt lots and this was a great lead into the Swindon job 2 years later.

My skill set is jack of all trades, master of none. Web Development in C#5, Visual Studio 2013, SQL Server, IIS, MVC5, WebAPI2, Javascript, JQuery. And then dabbling with whatever tech is current. AngularJS, SignalR.
 
Scotty123 said:
I think that could be due to looking around Leeds.
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Have a look on some of the jobs boards... there's plenty of jobs available round Leeds. Where I work seems to be pretty much always looking to add a dev to one of the teams and it seems that there are more jobs about than decent developers at the moment.

Get your CV sorted and send it to some of the recruiters, especially those that specialise in IT positions. They'll be able to put your details forward for positions where they think they'll be able to place you.
 
Plenty of jobs yes but not ones I think I'm suitable, as I detailed in my post :P.

I've put my cv online and had a few calls, but all for jobs not in Leeds, even though it says I am not willing to relocate.
 
Scotty123 said:
Hijacking this thread a little as I am in the same situation somewhat.

I did 8 years at university (4 years undergraduate masters, 4 years PhD), and then two years working at university as a research fellow (two jobs simultaneously here, the research fellowship and research officer working with P&G, based at the university). Essentially stuff of a physics/maths nature, programming in C/C++, GPU computing (CUDA) and parallel cpu programming (around six years experience in it).

I'm coming to the end of my research contract and I'd much rather focus on programming - do more "real life programming" as I call it. Anything goes really, I like all types of programming/scripting, from C++ to php, mySQL. There's a wealth of so many interesting things out there, web development, graphics and so on.

I've been looking at jobs but I can't really find anything suitable. Especially these days, tons of jobs for C#, Java and similar. I've done some C# as a hobby (WinForms) and found it a doddle compared to C++. Results very quickly and easily. I'd like to get round to some WPF as well. C++ seems to be quite niche now - games developing or high performance e.g. financial trading. Not surprising considering people are more interested in the end result than a product that's faster but takes longer to develop.

The problem is, jobs seem to require 2 years + commercial experience really. I've applied to a game development company over in Prague, waiting to here back as I thought that may be easier to get into, then a job over here (average wage there is £600 a month :P). I also enquired about some quite junior programming jobs in Leeds, yet never heard a response back to my informal asking.

I think that could be due to looking around Leeds. Probably not so much an issue in London, hundreds of jobs and so much opportunity. At the moment though I'm not entirely sure what I should do, and feel I need some "luck".
Click to expand...

If you actually like real programming, problem-solving, algorithms, you could do a lot worse than getting into games. Your C++, maths, physics and GPU programming experience would be valuable. If you can master the dark arts of shader programming you'll be in demand1
 
Scotty123 said:
Hijacking this thread a little as I am in the same situation somewhat.

I did 8 years at university (4 years undergraduate masters, 4 years PhD), and then two years working at university as a research fellow (two jobs simultaneously here, the research fellowship and research officer working with P&G, based at the university). Essentially stuff of a physics/maths nature, programming in C/C++, GPU computing (CUDA) and parallel cpu programming (around six years experience in it).

I'm coming to the end of my research contract and I'd much rather focus on programming - do more "real life programming" as I call it. Anything goes really, I like all types of programming/scripting, from C++ to php, mySQL. There's a wealth of so many interesting things out there, web development, graphics and so on.

I've been looking at jobs but I can't really find anything suitable. Especially these days, tons of jobs for C#, Java and similar. I've done some C# as a hobby (WinForms) and found it a doddle compared to C++. Results very quickly and easily. I'd like to get round to some WPF as well. C++ seems to be quite niche now - games developing or high performance e.g. financial trading. Not surprising considering people are more interested in the end result than a product that's faster but takes longer to develop.

The problem is, jobs seem to require 2 years + commercial experience really. I've applied to a game development company over in Prague, waiting to here back as I thought that may be easier to get into, then a job over here (average wage there is £600 a month :P). I also enquired about some quite junior programming jobs in Leeds, yet never heard a response back to my informal asking.

I think that could be due to looking around Leeds. Probably not so much an issue in London, hundreds of jobs and so much opportunity. At the moment though I'm not entirely sure what I should do, and feel I need some "luck".
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In exactly the same position! I've just finished my Postdoc in leeds and I'm currently without a job.
I did physics and a phd in leeds as well. I'm currently looking around sheffield. I have no formal programming experience. I think its going to be tough for us
 
Adam-r said:
In exactly the same position! I've just finished my Postdoc in leeds and I'm currently without a job.
I did physics and a phd in leeds as well. I'm currently looking around sheffield. I have no formal programming experience. I think its going to be tough for us
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Development skill can be demonstrated without formal programming experience. Work out the kind of dev skills companies are looking for, and then build something related, perhaps on an Open Source project or put it up on your own web hosting.

You just need to demonstrate you have the skills and ability, which can be easily done, because you can put stuff up on the internet for them to look at.
 
mid_gen said:
If you actually like real programming, problem-solving, algorithms, you could do a lot worse than getting into games. Your C++, maths, physics and GPU programming experience would be valuable. If you can master the dark arts of shader programming you'll be in demand1
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I know opengl, including glsl. I'd say graphics I like the best as it's a lot of maths. Still, not anywhere around Leeds that wants that.

I wouldn't say I'm a master at glsl. It was a spare time learning type of thing as a personal interest. Vertex and fragment shader stuff. I'd like to master it, but it's a matter of time at the moment. My free time at the moment is involved in writing some c# programs for someone and their game server to control, monitor it, amongst other things.

In exactly the same position! I've just finished my Postdoc in leeds and I'm currently without a job.
I did physics and a phd in leeds as well. I'm currently looking around sheffield. I have no formal programming experience. I think its going to be tough for us
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Was it a physics post doc too? I'm in mechanical engineering for mine.
 
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