Government citizen surveilance program
- Thread starter areksnumbr1sxylady
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Yep, and anonymous/encrypted email providers.
The reality is for most of us it's just not feasible but as you say for the people law enforcers want to catch all these laws will probably be ineffective, they will probably be using the same technology governments and government spies use, or just do it off the grid. Just look how long it took to find Bin Laden.
Another example is the big Terrorism case going on at the moment. Much of it is being tried in secret but there are some open court parts. It involves two men who were caught because they were pulled over with the address of Tony Blair... The police put a listening device in their car when they were at the station and the arrested them a couple of weeks later after they were overheard discussing trying to buy a gun...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/14/terrorism-trial-possible-plot-kill-tony-blair
EDIT: Another article on law enforcement using "hacking".
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/29/fbi-hacking-press-internet-users
One rule for them, another for everyone else...
The reality is for most of us it's just not feasible but as you say for the people law enforcers want to catch all these laws will probably be ineffective, they will probably be using the same technology governments and government spies use, or just do it off the grid. Just look how long it took to find Bin Laden.
Another example is the big Terrorism case going on at the moment. Much of it is being tried in secret but there are some open court parts. It involves two men who were caught because they were pulled over with the address of Tony Blair... The police put a listening device in their car when they were at the station and the arrested them a couple of weeks later after they were overheard discussing trying to buy a gun...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/14/terrorism-trial-possible-plot-kill-tony-blair
EDIT: Another article on law enforcement using "hacking".
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/29/fbi-hacking-press-internet-users
One rule for them, another for everyone else...
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Soldato
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This is where I disagree with you, I think in a modern age, our greatest threat is all around, not on foreign soil, if it is on foreign soil, I can see it there, and take steps to avoid it, how do I avoid what is within?
The police don't fight or win wars, it isn't their purpose, and an information war, or war (terrorism) based around such has to be fought in a different manner.
Quite happy for a digital bill of rights, quite happy for everyone to know exactly what is looked at, exactly what is open for review and for scrutiny.
I just think it should be everything open to scrutiny, absolutely everything, by another, anywhere. I suspect you probably have a different line on what your rights under such a bill should be.
Soldato
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War and savage attacks and acts of terrorism are not crimes in the standard meaning of the event. For other 'crimes' that the police investigate, fine have it this way, but during the cold war there were intelligences agencies at work, they worked in a manner completely different to that of the police. How is the modern digital era any different?
Soldato
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I live in Northern Ireland, under the 'threat' of dissident republican attacks. I am not a Unionist or a Nationalist by politics, both systems are utterly flawed politically, but the estimated 300-1000 monkeys running around playing at terrorist need to be stopped.
I don't wish my daughter to grow up in a society where some weekend a muppet will park a van in a town centre of a regional town, phone a warning and then have it explode (if they managed to build it properly) wreaking the town, fearing people, and causing disruption. Then for six months they can phone a random warning for any town and the town will be shut down for two days while the police and bomb squad investigate the hoax.
This is the reality I live in. We have relative peace with a few &*^& wits unable to let go of an agenda they don't actually care for. If it involves the chaps at GCHQ reading every text I send, every email I make, know what I am fapping to, to trace and track these creatures, then I don't care.
I happily forgo my privacy if it nets results and keeps them being monitored and watched to the point they are ineffective.
Modern terrorists are not stupid, certainly not at high level, and 'building a conventional case' is next to impossible, as they leave no forensics traces, gloves everywhere, burn out cars after they transport within them, have oddles of cash from dodgy fuel dumps, which are shut down all the time (and I bet it isn't conventional police work finding them).
The world changes, conventional isn't a format used anymore, you've yet to offer an alternative.
I don't wish my daughter to grow up in a society where some weekend a muppet will park a van in a town centre of a regional town, phone a warning and then have it explode (if they managed to build it properly) wreaking the town, fearing people, and causing disruption. Then for six months they can phone a random warning for any town and the town will be shut down for two days while the police and bomb squad investigate the hoax.
This is the reality I live in. We have relative peace with a few &*^& wits unable to let go of an agenda they don't actually care for. If it involves the chaps at GCHQ reading every text I send, every email I make, know what I am fapping to, to trace and track these creatures, then I don't care.
I happily forgo my privacy if it nets results and keeps them being monitored and watched to the point they are ineffective.
Modern terrorists are not stupid, certainly not at high level, and 'building a conventional case' is next to impossible, as they leave no forensics traces, gloves everywhere, burn out cars after they transport within them, have oddles of cash from dodgy fuel dumps, which are shut down all the time (and I bet it isn't conventional police work finding them).
The world changes, conventional isn't a format used anymore, you've yet to offer an alternative.
ohh sorry
well I believe its too late now ..
http://thebigoptout.com/your-medical-records/
https://medconfidential.org/
http://care-data.info/
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/19/nhs-patient-data-available-companies-buy
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-selling-our-nhs-records-to-private-companies-1
its not just the Summary care record either its spine data stuff too.. the whole thing was an intentionally confusing debacle and even GP's themselves were giving out the wrong information and the wrong leaflets. GP's did campaign against it. Another corporate sell off..
about 750,000 people managed to opt out AFAIK
Hope this helps.
We are not at war so that solves that point. Terrorism IS just another crime, a crime that has been going on in the UK for dozens of years. it didn't start in 2001 like many seem to believe (mostly in the US admittedly). You of all people should know that.
The problem is the issue spills over to the police (see the links above). It's not just some latent machine crunching through documents. There are thousands of people working, looking through information, photos, documents. Both within the security services and the police.
All the police need to do at the moment is have a name/email address and then they can request to see all the emails "not live" you have ever sent, including those emails to your lover, confidential details you want no one else to know, that time you signed up to the gay shemale dressing up website you signed up to... Etc etc. If sent through the post the police wouldn't be able to do that. They can't blanket servail all houses on a street, putting cameras in and turfing through your drawers without good reason and a warrant for every single house. They can do that for your computer though...
I'm quite happy for them to go through every single part of your life for no reason. in fact while you're at it how about putting a webcam in your bedroom so we can all see what you're doing? Then we can check for the bogey man under your bed before you go to sleep.
I'm not happy with them doing that to anyone else though... Neither are a significant number of other people, organisations and companies. It's one of the reasons why so many companies are now working towards removing their own ability to access your data on the devices and services they provide. They were trapped in once by the governments forcing them to keep quiet under threats of jail, they don't want to be trapped again.
They leave forensic footprints everywhere (at least the bad ones), it's what the security services use as evidence and what they are trawling through our data for. The simple fact is they can get warrants for this kind of thing. If there is enough evidence to chase these people then there should be enough evidence to get a warrant. The very fact it got to the point of people trawling through web caps of millions of peoples private webcam chats just shows how bad it's got...
As yet no one in the security services or in government has been able to provide a single case where the bulk collection of evidence has yet been the deciding factor in a case against a terrorist. They have been asked by senates and commons select committees, yet none have been forthcoming...
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sounds ok to me. as long as human rights are not trampled on. (btw i don’t mean human rights bill being exploited and abused , i just mean common sense & decency.)
Shouldnt the people themselves decide whether the benefits of mass surveillance are worth the privacy infringement?
Apparently we live in democracy after all...
Apparently we live in democracy after all...
Soldato
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Potentially, but I shall misquote someone now:
'Consider this, consider the 'average' person, and just how stupid that person is and can be.
Then realise that 50% of people are more stupid.'
We are living in a country where you can vote for a or b with a little bit of c.
A little better than the USA where its a or b, and nothing else.
If people had actual full democracy, there would be an electronic referendum held daily on various matter and the results of which would be enacted into law.
its not just about you.
That is true.
This is because at the end of the day the government is just another group of people who have a common goal. To help achieve this they need to condition their citizens into believing certain things are extremely "bad", yet keep them up and running at the same time.... This is a perfect recipe for control.
A bit like drugs. People assume the governments, with all their Wars Against Drugs actually want drug trade to stop. Right?
Wrong. If that happened the government would simply lose out on a massive chunk of their powers of control. Drug trade stopping would be a huge problem for police because such a large chunk of their police work ie. policing what chemicals people are or aren't allowed to suck into their lungs and stomachs would simply cease to exist.
Now you understand that drugs and the war against them are a necessity to keep police in business. Now try to realise what terrorism and the war against it is trying to keep in business. It's chilling how the world's business actually works.
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You are correct it's also about the people who are planning on doing things or have done things that they can therefore protect the rest of us from. Hence why I still like the idea.
Keep your own child safe, why is it down to anyone else?
Arm children. They can protect themselves. Problem solved.
lol what?
The government will keep your child safe? Your idea of safety is throw them into the care of some utterly diabolical LA/council workers who turn a blind eye to children in their care getting raped?
Just backs up what I said. The mere promise of safety and security is so powerful, yet the reality can be so far from the promise.
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