Graduates 'could pay back double their student loans'

On average, making every student consider whether they want an additional £30K debt upon graduation or not will have the effect of persuading many to skip uni - meaning those people will not end up as good at their job as otherwise they would have (on average) - meaning the companies they work for don't do as well, meaning England does not do as well.

I'd ask how you compute this logic, but to call it logic would be an affront to intelligent debate.

Culling graduate numbers would not reduce Britain's productive capacity at all - there are already far more graduates than there are jobs so your point holds no water whatsoever. The greater problem is that we do not have enough people filling vacancies unsuitable for graduates, hence why we're taking in labour from across Europe.

If people do not see the investment nature behind £30k of debt for vastly improved earning potential, there are only two possible reasons:

1. The degree they are considering is likely not worthwhile
2. It's probable that they are not of the intellectual calibre that university students should be.

It really is that simple. There is no inherent exclusionary aspect to the system, no matter how much you claim there is.
 
If it gets paid by Mumsy I'm happy. If it gets paid by someone worthwhile doing a good job once they've left I'm happy. If the rest are minimised by high fees I'm happy.

The point is

1) Rich kid is going to get it paid by mumsy.
2) Poor kid is not going to get it paid by mumsy.

The result

Some poor kids will say 'I don't want to be saddled with £30K debt'

The rich kid will say 'Think I'll go, as I won't have £30K debt'.

Therefore education starts to become the preserve of the rich rather than the people best suited to uni, going to uni.

When the government paid this absolutely was not the case. The education you got or the educational decisions you made were not dependent on how rich you were - it was not a factor. Society was better off for it.
 
If you say a very conservative estimate for a graduates salary would average out at £40k per year for 35 years thats a salary of £1.4 Million. If you aren't prepared to invest £20k - £30k, in the form of a long term extremely cheap loan, to achieve that then it's your choice, but has nothing to do with being rich or poor as you only pay the money back if you're earning a decent salary. You cant really lose to be honest.
 
Some poor kids will say 'I don't want to be saddled with £30K debt'

Well this is where we disagree then. I'm not put off by it, and I don't know anyone who would be. Obviously I'd rather not pay that much, but I can see past the sensationalist arguments and realise that it's still worth it.

It's also a very small minority of students whose parents pay their tuition fees.
 
Well this is where we disagree then. I'm not put off by it, and I don't know anyone who would be. Obviously I'd rather not pay that much, but I can see past the sensationalist arguments and realise that it's still worth it.

It's also a very small minority of students whose parents pay their tuition fees.

No-one (UK citizens) currently pays tuition fees. When tuition fees come in - I reckon many richer parents will pay for their kids tuition fees to get them to uni - for effectively the same reasons that many parents pay for their kids driving lessons if they can afford it :/ They want them to get on. As for the poor kids - nope.

This is exactly what the original system was designed to avoid ..
 
The fundamental point here is that less people will choose to go to university, meaning we'll have a less educated population, meaning that we will be less able, as a rule, to compete globally, meaning that there will be less money within the population, meaning that people will spend less, meaning that the government will get less money in as taxes.


The values of having an educated population have been known for centuries - otherwise we wouldn't even bother with free schooling. Reducing the education level seems to be for short term gain, yet long term loss.

I agree with what you are saying but many jobs within the manufacturing sector don't require degree. Most of the jobs seem to require practical skills such as precision engineering requiring cnc operative skills and which aren't taught in engineering degree but are part of btec, vocational qualifications.

Imo we need both degree and vocational practical qualifications with more emphasis on the latter.

Actually we need specific courses in any field tailored to the needs of businesses and where an input from employers, educational establishments and government is required to formulate those courses,as I have been saying many times before so young people don't suffer as much in the post graduate scenario when they begin looking for work. :)
 
Well .. we'll agree to disagree.

I take it that if the school leaving age was currently 11 years old, you'd pish-pish any idea of shifting it to 16, as it wouldn't result in your population achieving a greater level of education?


Just .. wow.

Well, no, because you're just making things up now...

The issue is we have declining standards in our secondary schools and at A level, when measured internationally. Our universities are also declining in reputation with a few exceptions (who are usually attacked by the left for being elitist).
 
Well, no, because you're just making things up now...

The issue is we have declining standards in our secondary schools and at A level, when measured internationally. Our universities are also declining in reputation with a few exceptions (who are usually attacked by the left for being elitist).

I don't know - when I was in school in the 80s people were always harping on about declining standards (as well as preaching the 'factoid' that we'd run out of oil completely in 30 years :rolleyes: )

I think that everyone always think kids no longer respect their elders, the country is going down the pan, and things arn't as good as they used to be. They've certainly been saying such things for the 30+ years I've been on the planet :/

When I was in school we had to share a text book between 3 kids. Nowadays they have a laptop each :)
 
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Culling graduate numbers would not reduce Britain's productive capacity at all - there are already far more graduates than there are jobs so your point holds no water whatsoever. The greater problem is that we do not have enough people filling vacancies unsuitable for graduates, hence why we're taking in labour from across Europe.

If people do not see the investment nature behind £30k of debt for vastly improved earning potential, there are only two possible reasons:

1. The degree they are considering is likely not worthwhile
2. It's probable that they are not of the intellectual calibre that university students should be.

It really is that simple. There is no inherent exclusionary aspect to the system, no matter how much you claim there is.

Quoted for truth :) Will probably stop reading now, as Theophany has summed up my view better than I could have ever said.
 
No-one (UK citizens) currently pays tuition fees.

Eh?

I'm fairly sure I paid £1,175 tuition fee per year the first time I was at uni - now I'm back doing my PGCE, the fee is something like £3,400... Not as much as £9k but not /nothing/ by any means.

Or are you talking about an up-front cost specifically?
 
Eh?

I'm fairly sure I paid £1,175 tuition fee per year the first time I was at uni - now I'm back doing my PGCE, the fee is something like £3,400... Not as much as £9k but not /nothing/ by any means.

Or are you talking about an up-front cost specifically?

I'm not sure about my claim. I thought perhaps incorrectly the government copped the whole tuition bill for UK citizens at this exact moment ..

As stated .. I may be wrong ..
 
I can't. In the same way as I believe the statement 'People on average will have a better Sunday if it isn't heavily raining' - I can't prove it .. I just believe it to be the case.

To simplify what I believe your stance to be, correct me if I'm wrong.

You think that any degree studied at University will enrich and improve the ability of anybody that studied it no matter what their later vocation?
 
No-one (UK citizens) currently pays tuition fees.

I'm not sure about my claim. I thought perhaps incorrectly the government copped the whole tuition bill for UK citizens at this exact moment ..

As stated .. I may be wrong ..

The tuition fee is currently just over £3000. This isn't the cost of the education, just the fee you pay. Like the new system it doesn't disadvantage anyone, since everyone gets the full amount as a loan...
 
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On the subject of silly degrees, I do BSc Computer Game Technology, woop woop!

Fees arn't going to affect me, feel sorry for the poor ******** it does though

No swearing

Gilly
 
To simplify what I believe your stance to be, correct me if I'm wrong.

You think that any degree studied at University will enrich and improve the ability of anybody that studied it no matter what their later vocation?

Almost spot on

- I would replaced 'studied' with 'passed it'. Complete idiots that crawl into a uni then spend 4 years getting stoned .. obviously no benefit. Trouble is we have no effective way of weeding out (excuse the pun) exactly which people are going to do this. And as discussed - I think charging people more will have the unacceptable side-effect of making legitimate good, clever but poor people choose to skip uni when they really shouldn't ..

Yes I think it helps regardless of final vocation. I'm gonna need to explain a little:

Generally throughout your life up until the age of 18 I think many people have an awful lot of structure. That is, they are forced to go to school, their personal decisions are very closely monitored as a general rule (as in, not many will have the option just to lie in bed all day rather than go to school, a lot will generally get pushed down the 'right route' by their parents etc).

Getting to university - well, firstly, it takes you out of your comfort zone. That is, you meet an awful lot of people from different walks of life and as such you become a more rounded person. You also have to learn to budget very quickly, and learn that for example if you don't wash your own socks, they are just going to remain dirty until you, personally, do. That didn't happen when I was back at my mums. For my non-graduate mates that lived with their mum until 26 then moved in with their g/f - it still doesn't happen!

Uni also forces you to be able to self-discipline. That is, if you leave school and rather than going to Uni, you join a business, or even more so one of the armed forces, you're going to be told clearly and precisely the expectations on a day by day basis. At uni that does not happen. The successful uni people have to learn the capability to show self-discipline and organisation - to work out their own schedule and be able to do work even if no-one is going to tell you off in any way whatsoever if you don't bother with work/lectures (you'll just fail at the end of the year) - this self displine learning is a real skill which shouldn't be under-estimated. A task which can be used for a number of things outside of and within the workplace. Every single day at work I use capabilities I learnt at uni to deal with (1) lack of personal motivation (2) People being unreasonable (3) Me not being told directly what to do every day - rather told a project and it's objectives than thrown at it, to approach the way I chose. Uni gave me the capability to do that. Before uni -- someone just saying 'Perform project abc here is what we want at the end' I'd have just said 'er .. where shall I start then?'

Anecdotal again - but before I went to uni I was a scared, shy (and work shy) lad. At uni I quickly realised that no-one was going to force me to do anything - so pulled my own socks up, and have kept them pulled up since. I also learnt a lot about keeping mates, and how to interact with people, when I had no safety net of 'I'm going home/to my family'. If instead I'd joined a workplace where the expectations were managed day-in, day-out by a line manager and my life was much more structured 'for me' by others - I'd have never gained the ability to get to where I have today.

It's not just me that thinks this. Lots and lots of work places offer graduates better prospects than non-graduates. Tescos offer graduates better deals even if their course was in '18th Century Japanese welding techniques'!!! THEY realise they are getting a person capable of surviving and learning all the above is worth a lot to them - as oppose to someone who has lived frankly a more sheltered life.

Turning into a wall'o'text so will stop now ..
 
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