Poll: Grammar Schools back on the table.

[No1newts]

I don't know what world people live in but its not the real one. Its like people think that the current system is fair. Its like people think that the quality of schools isn't hugely dictated by the area it is in.

You cannot remove schooling from the simple fact that areas of affluence will have better schools however you want to label them. People in wealthy areas take more interest in their childrens education and the children do the same.

The best teachers still gravitate towards either private schools or the better schools within the standard system.

Our biggest issue isn't making sure that we don't create a system that pushes the wealthy further away from the rest, its the dregs of society bringing down everyone else.

The school my mum worked at had huge problems because it was on a rough council estate where the parents didn't give a **** and the kids took the same attitude. The teachers had mostly given up and the kids that did want to learn were brought down by those that didn't want to.

You can claim that the sins of the father shouldn't be born by the son but thats life. Its largely inescapable. If you have a scummy family then its really hard to get out of that situation.

Its just sad that we see encouraging some of our brightest to achieve is a bad thing and that it comes at the expense of others. You want education standards to improve? Sort out the parents.

The idea that everyone is a genius just waiting to be set free is ********. Not everyone is clever and most schools have teachers that are good enough to get kids up to a fine standard of education if given the chance.

This stupid idea has even managed to make its way up to university where idiots think that tuition fees are unreasonable yet at the same time advocate every man and his dog getting a degree in washing up. If you want a good university system then make it merit based and free. You can't have it both ways.

Good post.

A lot of people think racing everyone to the bottom is infact better than letting those with ability (whatever their background) succeed. Let's all be equally ****, hurray!

 

[Tefal]

Because the dross pupils tend to drag the whole school towards the lowest common denominator.

Aye, same reason you dont put the fat slow kid in the school relay team

 

[Tefal]

Ohh, the market will open up for private tutoring for 10 yr olds again then. My father in law made a fortune as a sideline to his normal teaching when grammar schools were last around

Excellent.

This will surely help teachers who complain about being under paid, and give them time to improve thier one on one/small group teaching practices.

And kids getting extra education.

Win/win/win

 

[fez]

Serious question here.

How do people think we can have a fair and equal society where:

People have wildly varying intellects and aptitudes
People have different motivations and interests
People have massively different socioeconomic circumstances
People have very different parents who they spend 90% of their time with and who will naturally impart their values on their kids.

 

[Dolph]

Ohh, the market will open up for private tutoring for 10 yr olds again then. My father in law made a fortune as a sideline to his normal teaching when grammar schools were last around

Grammar schools never went away, there are 3 in Plymouth, for example.

Is tutoring as costly as the house price premium?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-of-up-to-630000--to-live-near-top-performi/

Or do you advocate random placement to push results down all over in the name of fairness?

 

[Mason-]

All the best education systems in the world don't use grammar schools.

 

[Dolph]

All the best education systems in the world don't use grammar schools.

Citation needed, I doubt they use uk style comprehensives either.

 

[cheesyboy]

Serious question here.

How do people think we can have a fair and equal society where:

People have wildly varying intellects and aptitudes
People have different motivations and interests
People have massively different socioeconomic circumstances
People have very different parents who they spend 90% of their time with and who will naturally impart their values on their kids.

By giving everyone the best chance to realise their potential?

Schools have more influence than you think. My son is awake for 91 hours per week and he spends 30 of those hours at school, that's 1/3rd.
(In fact, he spends 38 hours at school, as he's in breakfast/after-school club for two days a week)

 

[Dolph]

By giving everyone the best chance to realise their potential?

Schools have more influence than you think. My son is awake for 91 hours per week and he spends 30 of those hours at school, that's 1/3rd.
(In fact, he spends 38 hours at school, as he's in breakfast/after-school club for two days a week)

What happens when some individuals don't embrace that chance or damage the chances of others through their actions or needs?

Dramatically different starting potentials require different approaches and have different likely outcomes, meaning a one size fits all approach will fail students at either end of the curve.

 

[Efour]

Round and round the wheel of UK incompetence spins. Did they interview any teachers or officials on this one? They should get their noses out of Education. In 20 years time, they will all be academies again, or whatever the next buzz word is.

What schools need is more vocational focuses for the "thick" kids to teach them decent honest skills like electricians, plumbers , mechanics, painters decorators. Now you have left the EU im pretty sure you will need to hire a **** load after 2 years.

Double standards and 2 tiered systems only the rich can afford. I wish Britain would just admit it rather than trying to hide it with a veneer of socialism.

 

[Dolph]

Round and round the wheel of UK incompetence spins. Did they interview any teachers or officials on this one? They should get their noses out of Education. In 20 years time, they will all be academies again, or whatever the next buzz word is.

What schools need is more vocational focuses for the "thick" kids to teach them decent honest skills like electricians, plumbers , mechanics, painters decorators. Now you have left the EU im pretty sure you will need to hire a **** load after 2 years.

In my experience, teachers are the last people who should be consulted about what is best for education, as you invariably get an answer to what the teachers think is best for them and damn the children

 

[dowie]

All the best education systems in the world don't use grammar schools.

Someone else said something like this previously yet a quick google shows they do select

Singapore is number one and they stream by ability, placing students in schools on the basis of exam results....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_education_in_Singapore

Secondary education in Singapore is based on four different tracks or streams:"Integrated Programme", "Express", "Normal (Academic)", or "Normal (Technical)". Singaporeans are forbidden to attend international schools on the island without Ministry of Education permission. At the end of Primary 6, the national Primary School Leaving Examination (PSLE) is held. The examination determines whether the student is ready to leave primary school by passing; places in secondary schools are allocated according to students' performance in the examination.

So technically (in terms of semantics) you're correct in that they don't use grammar schools but rather they have four categories... they still practice selection based on ability and they get better results than any other country.

Likewise Hong Kong is number two and they select too with the 'Secondary School Placement Allocation'

 

[Tefal]

When you have a school that promises to output a greater percentage of high achievers, some parents will go to enormous lengths to get their children enrolled. I'm not sure that's necessarily fair. Fix that and I'm all for them.

im not sure its a bad thing.

basically what you are saying is you want to punish people for being good parents.

how about instead of trying to drag down the good parents you try to raise up the ones that dont care.

 

[rG-tom]

Someone else said something like this previously yet a quick google shows they do select

Singapore is number one and they stream by ability, placing students in schools on the basis of exam results....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_education_in_Singapore



So technically (in terms of semantics) you're correct in that they don't use grammar schools but rather they have four categories... they still practice selection based on ability and they get better results than any other country.

Likewise Hong Kong is number two and they select too with the 'Secondary School Placement Allocation'

Also to point out the elephant in the room in countries like Hong Kong VS the UK is that you just don't get the vast quantities of council estate third generation unemployed scum that pop out kids for benefits and "teach" them the same...their culture is considerably more focused on education, discipline and work ethic being instilled from an early age no matter what their background.

This is no doubt helped by the fact there are no discernible benefits for those unemployed, there is no minimum wage making it a desirable/reasonable option for the uneducated/unskilled to not better themselves through education...you work hard or you don't survive so you might as well try and become something...

 

[Danthus]

In my experience, teachers are the last people who should be consulted about what is best for education, as you invariably get an answer to what the teachers think is best for them and damn the children

Don't listen to doctors, don't listen to teachers.........

 

[cheesyboy]

im not sure its a bad thing.

basically what you are saying is you want to punish people for being good parents.

how about instead of trying to drag down the good parents you try to raise up the ones that dont care.

No, no punishment at all. The suggestion is not to reward kids for being fortunate enough to come from a good family.

 

[Tefal]

No, no punishment at all. The suggestion is not to reward kids for being fortunate enough to come from a good family.

built the suggestion is to stop parents doing what's best for their child.

how do you stop a child being "rewarded" for not being from a sexually abusive home?

they wont have anywhere near the number of mental issues for example.

 

[adam cool dude]

Grammar schools are pretty much status quo in Lincolnshire. There are 4 (2 girls and 2 boys) within 15 miles of my house.

I never went to Grammar school for some reason my results went missing and I went to a normal but considered good school in my area. I ended up getting better grades than most of my fellow Grammar school friends anyway. It is all about the parenting in the end and picking a school that is in a reasonable area.

Obviously being in a good area and in a grammar school is going to be advantageous but if your child has the minerals and you are ready to put the effort in then they will do just fine.

 

[cheesyboy]

built the suggestion is to stop parents doing what's best for their child.

how do you stop a child being "rewarded" for not being from a sexually abusive home?

they wont have anywhere near the number of mental issues for example.

Lots of people are saying "look, kids with bad parents are bad at school, whereas kids from good parents are good at school. Lets separate out the good kids so that they don't get distracted by the bad ones, and let the bad kids distract each other".

Regardless of the exact details of just how **** their home life may be, you're ****ing those bad kids over a second time, and giving the others a second boost.

Giving everyone the same access to quality education isn't punishing anyone, it's simply giving everyone the best chance the school system can offer, as equally as it can be.

 

[Woden]

In my experience, teachers are the last people who should be consulted about what is best for education, as you invariably get an answer to what the teachers think is best for them and damn the children

Can't say I have ever seen this. Teaching is one of the few careers where staff are selfish like that. I've yet to see a teacher that doesn't want what's best for their kids (sans the one alcoholic at my old school but that's another story).