Poll: Grammar Schools back on the table.
- Thread starter Danthus
- Start date
So people with money and/or better parents deserve a better level of education
Yeah, lets kick people in the teeth who have already been dealt a rough hand in life, sounds very civilized and fair
on the other side, I came from a family with little money and was held back by the comprehensive education system
On the other hand it is also cruel to structure the education system in such a way that it could potentially hamstring a promising pupil because his class environment is naturally disruptive.
So people with money and/or better parents deserve a better level of education
Yeah, lets kick people in the teeth who have already been dealt a rough hand in life, sounds very civilized and fair
Who said they deserve it?
Have I missed something?The fact is they almost universally get it though...
So people with money and/or better parents deserve a better level of education
Yeah, lets kick people in the teeth who have already been dealt a rough hand in life, sounds very civilized and fair
No they don't deserve better at all, but unfortunately this is the reality. It seems to be an impossible equation to balance.
Class and wealth creates opportunity......this is a tale and an inconvenient truth that is as old as time.
They'll be coming of age at just about the right time the t*ries re-introduce indentured servitude.
I would call that unfortunate, rather than cruel.
My use of "cruel" was due to the principle suggested of recognising a child's poor (or poorer) performance was due to factors beyond their control (parents) and further 'punishing' them by still giving them the **** end of the stick with quality of schooling.
Answer is to cull universities and pointless degrees... make Universities pick students, and not the other way around, mainly based from exam results (A-levels). Yes some people don't excel at exams, so what would be the point of them going University anyways?
Then make university free.
As a taxpayer I wouldn't have any problems with our best and brightest going to University for free.
Then bring back apprenticeships in a big way.
Then make university free.
As a taxpayer I wouldn't have any problems with our best and brightest going to University for free.
Then bring back apprenticeships in a big way.
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So why structure state education such that it reinforces that?
Isn't that the problem though? It hasn't been structured for that purpose, yet people are able to take advantage of the system.
That absolutely needs to be done
Maybe those children, with the right help from an early enough age would qualify for a grammar school?
I don't get the whole rich and education argument. Private schools fair play but they are a different game altogether.
University is essentially free until you leave? Minus living costs. Which you have to pay out either way...
I don't understand the whole poor people can't afford university argument.
I may not understand the whole modern uni system but as I understand it if you do well from your degree you earn decent money and pay your loans back, if you don't then it doesn't cost you
If that's right then the only real argument is that some degrees/students are a waste of time
I don't think that it necessarily does. I was grammar school educated, and a lot of my friends' parents were not considered wealthy (its a very blue collar town). Still their potential at primary school and their performance in the 11+ (the adequacy of this as a tool is another debate altogether) was such that they went to a grammar school.
On the other hand I was fortunate enough to have parents that were almost able to move against the tide with me. When I first moved (at 7) to 'grammar school' area I was behind most of my peers. Some of it was the result of the previous school, the other was on the back of me being a lazy ****. My parents were able to finance private tuition and night school to maximise my performance.....it worked.
So in my example wealth created my opportunity......luckily I took it.
From my experience though and in my area I was the exception to the rule.
Sadly that help isn't available. Resigning those kids to a second rate education because of the sins of their parents isn't right though.
Exactly, that was my point.
Soldato
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- 18 Oct 2012
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- 8,352
I'm going off personal experience here, living in northern ireland where we still have grammar schools, i went to one however they had a part exchange whereby students could study modules not offered by the school at the local comprehensive.
I did this and there was a radically different attitude to the education, the teachers very much had the impression on having given up, probably due to the students constantly not caring, just walking out to have a smoke etc etc.
They didnt even bother teaching the subject, indeed i wasnt even made aware there was an exam for the course (assuming it to all be coursework, which i did the best i could) until my schools exam timetable turned up.
Not surprisingly given how i hadnt been taught the subject or had any idea what should have been on the exam i didnt do so well.
So re-introducing grammar schools is a tricky issue, on the one hand absolutely the cherry picking of promising students and placing them in an environment where the teaching quality is unhindered by the majority of the timewasters/couldnt care less crowd absolutely does yeild more effective education for those students.
But it absolutely must not be at the expense of the students that dont make the grade being hammered with the notion that they're stupid and that theyre not expected to do as much, and being put in an enviroment where this attitude is commonplace, this happened to one of my cousins, an intellegent lass who failed her 11+ because of nerves rather than lack of ability, but she's lost a lot of her purpose from that experience.
Interestingly though its not nessecarily the case that a "poorer quality" institution can provide a worse off education, i did an hnd at tech after leaving school before proceeding to university, and i have in many cases benefited greatly from the practical background that course gave me.
As for the universities issue, more needs to be done to bring universities in line with what industry actually wants, i've just finished up my placement year and during the handover my replacement was from a quite prestigious institution having done 3 years of a masters course before doing placement, he came in acting like he knew it all until it came to light that a lot of basic simple principles and knowledge just werent there, to the stage of wondering what the hell had they actually been teaching him.
I did this and there was a radically different attitude to the education, the teachers very much had the impression on having given up, probably due to the students constantly not caring, just walking out to have a smoke etc etc.
They didnt even bother teaching the subject, indeed i wasnt even made aware there was an exam for the course (assuming it to all be coursework, which i did the best i could) until my schools exam timetable turned up.
Not surprisingly given how i hadnt been taught the subject or had any idea what should have been on the exam i didnt do so well.
So re-introducing grammar schools is a tricky issue, on the one hand absolutely the cherry picking of promising students and placing them in an environment where the teaching quality is unhindered by the majority of the timewasters/couldnt care less crowd absolutely does yeild more effective education for those students.
But it absolutely must not be at the expense of the students that dont make the grade being hammered with the notion that they're stupid and that theyre not expected to do as much, and being put in an enviroment where this attitude is commonplace, this happened to one of my cousins, an intellegent lass who failed her 11+ because of nerves rather than lack of ability, but she's lost a lot of her purpose from that experience.
Interestingly though its not nessecarily the case that a "poorer quality" institution can provide a worse off education, i did an hnd at tech after leaving school before proceeding to university, and i have in many cases benefited greatly from the practical background that course gave me.
As for the universities issue, more needs to be done to bring universities in line with what industry actually wants, i've just finished up my placement year and during the handover my replacement was from a quite prestigious institution having done 3 years of a masters course before doing placement, he came in acting like he knew it all until it came to light that a lot of basic simple principles and knowledge just werent there, to the stage of wondering what the hell had they actually been teaching him.
Soldato
- Joined
- 18 May 2010
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- 12,852
I'm really confused, is there no 11 plus anymore? There is a Grammar school down the road from where I am sitting, can anyone go there?
Yes I live under a rock
Yes I live under a rock