Greece Elections

[Destination]

I'm struggling to work out what your point is exactly. Greece's tax regime and budget deficit weren't all that extreme.



I don't think anyone is arguing that Greece didn't, or doesn't, need reform. The problem is that the austerity programme introduced has spectacularly failed to meet it's goals because it's had such a negative effect on growth. Greece needed its economy to be allowed to recover and time to implement reforms at a sensible pace.

How fast should Europe keep lending them money while the have a 'reasonable pace' to introduce tax reforms such as encouraging the population to actually pay some?
The 'Austerity package' isn't exactly crippling, just the Greek's have made it such by resisting any implementation.
Their tax evasion was estimated to cost them between a third and a half of their entire deficit in recent years.

A study of 2012 tax returns versus Greek bank account investigations showed an average of 92% evasion by their professional medics.

Seriously, what the hell is Europe actually meant to do? they're throwing worse money after bad, and would have been better never bailing out Greece when the depth of their governmental lies became known, but they did, and here we are.
For some odd reason people are awaiting Greek vote and Greek choice on what happens next.

 

[M1k3H]

How fast should Europe keep lending them money while the have a 'reasonable pace' to introduce tax reforms such as encouraging the population to actually pay some?
The 'Austerity package' isn't exactly crippling, just the Greek's have made it such by resisting any implementation.
Their tax evasion was estimated to cost them between a third and a half of their entire deficit in recent years.

A study of 2012 tax returns versus Greek bank account investigations showed an average of 92% evasion by their professional medics.

Seriously, what the hell is Europe actually meant to do? they're throwing worse money after bad, and would have been better never bailing out Greece when the depth of their governmental lies became known, but they did, and here we are.
For some odd reason people are awaiting Greek vote and Greek choice on what happens next.

They are meant to do whatever an investor does when he puts his money on a risky investment but the investment fails.

 

[Destination]

Break the person's legs?

 

[M1k3H]

Break the person's legs?

Well, replace investor with "investor" or loan shark, and yes, that would be the appropriate response.

 

[Sankari]

Just clocking your signature makes me wonder why we have not seen Farage or any other UKIP cronies capitalising on this ongoing Greek tragedy?

Nigel Farage has been making his usual silly noises about it, but mostly in the tabloids I suspect.

 

[Dr Jack]

How fast should Europe keep lending them money while the have a 'reasonable pace' to introduce tax reforms such as encouraging the population to actually pay some?

As I pointed out in the link you clearly read since you commented on it: the Greek's not only do pay taxes they pay a very similar proportion of national income in taxes to the UK.

The 'Austerity package' isn't exactly crippling, just the Greek's have made it such by resisting any implementation.

This is just nonsense. The Greek's have made huge concessions and it's had a huge impact on their economy.

Seriously, what the hell is Europe actually meant to do? they're throwing worse money after bad, and would have been better never bailing out Greece when the depth of their governmental lies became known, but they did, and here we are.

Recognise that those countries that have done extremely well out of the Euro bare some responsibility to show solidarity when things go wrong. They should have guaranteed Italian, Spanish and Greek debts in the short term to recover the interest rates; followed policies aimed to introduce inflation and devalue the Euro somewhat; and accepted a partial default immediately. Much of which they've pretty much done but far too late after utterly shafting the Greek people and hitting the peoples of the other PIGS pretty hard too. The extraordinary thing about it is the extent to which their failure to help Greece has hurt themselves. The failure to actual resolve the crisis has done far more economic damage than simply helping out would have done.

 

[Greebo]

As I pointed out in the link you clearly read since you commented on it: the Greek's not only do pay taxes they pay a very similar proportion of national income in taxes to the UK.

.

Surely that applies if people understate their earnings? Eg doctor earns 100k but declares 20k and pays tax on that then he will still be paying the right proportion of national income?

And what about the 95% who pay no tax? What about the 98% of undeclared swimming pools?

 

[robgmun]

A Greek No vote, and subsequent leaving euro, and the economic mess that might ensue would probably assist greatly in the UK referendum vote, where people would start voting yes to remain part of Europe.
Interesting, wonder how they will vote.

It can go either way depending on what Greeks do after they drop out, if they look like they're succeeding then it'll strengthen the No vote

 

[Destination]

Surely that applies if people understate their earnings? Eg doctor earns 100k but declares 20k and pays tax on that then he will still be paying the right proportion of national income?

And what about the 95% who pay no tax? What about the 98% of undeclared swimming pools?

That's my point, one of the austerity messages was that people pay what is due.
That the government should start to enforce this.
If they did so, they would increase their overall revenue by 6% of GDP. That's one hell of a growth, from simply making people pay what is due, rather than hiding it in a bank or in an offshore bank.

They haven't done this yet.

 

[Dr Jack]

Surely that applies if people understate their earnings? Eg doctor earns 100k but declares 20k and pays tax on that then he will still be paying the right proportion of national income?

Only if you presume GDP figures are being fiddled in precisely the same was as tax receipts.

And what about the 95% who pay no tax? What about the 98% of undeclared swimming pools?

I guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that the figure that 95% of Greek's don't pay tax is completely false. It is simply not possible. Avoidance of direct taxation may be rife but that does not effect other forms of taxation.

It's fairly irrelevant. Greek's tax system is based on a widespread disregard for paying the assessed level of taxes. That's a problem in terms of organisation of the tax system, fairness, efficiency, corruption and so forth but it's not a problem in terms of Greece paying it's way because the tax system is already collecting money for the government at a level similar to the rest of the EU and almost identical to the UK.

 

[Dr Jack]

If they did so, they would increase their overall revenue by 6% of GDP. That's one hell of a growth, from simply making people pay what is due, rather than hiding it in a bank or in an offshore bank.

No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't because the money would be taken out of the economy and given to foreign interests. Unlike a rise in taxation to invest in infrastructure where the money re-circulates and boosts GDP it would simply be removed from the economy and produce a fall in economic output.

They haven't done this yet.

Why do you think that is? Might it actually be a bit trickier than simply saying you'd like it to happen, perhaps? Might it be, just for example, that it's actually quite hard to improve tax collection while - at the same time - being forced to cut the systems of state that would actually do the detection and collection?

 

[Destination]

Yes the tax system is, as it takes it from services, they make their money from tourism, taxing tourism, this means that in paying less income tax, they come out on average, as average.
The easiest way for them to fix their broken economy, bar removing all the totally unnecessary government jobs, and reforming their pension system into something similar to the rest of Europe, is to encourage those who should be paying tax, to actually do so. With 100% enforcement they could drop their rate to 15% and still be ahead...

They haven't bothered.
So we shouldn't either.
Hope they vote No, it'll make for a much more interesting future.

 

[M1k3H]

Yes the tax system is, as it takes it from services, they make their money from tourism, taxing tourism, this means that in paying less income tax, they come out on average, as average.
The easiest way for them to fix their broken economy, bar removing all the totally unnecessary government jobs, and reforming their pension system into something similar to the rest of Europe, is to encourage those who should be paying tax, to actually do so. With 100% enforcement they could drop their rate to 15% and still be ahead...

They haven't bothered.
So we shouldn't either.
Hope they vote No, it'll make for a much more interesting future.

So hang on here. Let's just assume that you are right, they haven't bothered.

1. The German and French banks did not do their due diligence (or they were too greedy) and lend a failed state money.

2. The German and French governments did not do their due diligence (or they were too greedy politically) and lend a failed state with a default status money for the first bailout.

3. The German and French governments did not do their due diligence (or they were too greedy politically) and lend a failed state with a default status MORE money for the second bailout. In addition to this, realizing some of the extend of their failed previous actions (see points 1 and 2) they agreed to do a haircut to some of Greece's debt. They did this to appear as though they were indeed helping Greece (in-spite of points 1 and 2 above clearly showing they did not or they thought they did but didn't anyway), so it was easy to swallow in their parliaments without a big impact on their political status.

In points 1, 2 and 3 can you tell me where the Germans and French HAVE bothered to help Greece but more importantly its people?

And why if they saw in points 1 and 2, a government or the people voting in governments not bothering with anything, they kept giving them money?!

And yes, Greece is at fault for accepting this, but I'm pretty sure the Germans and French pressured them to accept to cover their own failures. (See George Papandreou's "side-step" from PM for wanting a referendum for bailout)

P.S. I mention only Germans and French, not because I have something against the people, but because they hold the biggest stakes of the debt and they have the biggest voting power in EU matters. All Eurozone countries are to blame for this.

 

[ricky1981]

I think there is plenty of blame to go around, Greece borrowed too much and told a lot of lies in the past which meant lenders who thought "we probably shouldn't do this" would have actually thought "we should definitely not do this" but that mistake was made all around the world not just as it pertains to Greece.

That said, I think the recent bailouts have been a farce, lending someone money when 90%+ is coming straight back to you in interest payments is just a nonsense. No sane person would offer or accept a deal like that and both sides have "kicked the can down the road' so many times rather than address the problem effectively.

Personally I think Greece shouldn't have been admitted to the EU and single currency when it was clearly inefficient and in parts very corrupt but the EU was so focused on growth they glossed over the facts. As a result, Greece got access to "cheap" money, didn't reform and when the crash hit we know the rest, but in hindsight we all make perfect choices.

If the referendum was looking clear cut then it might achieve something but the polls suggest it will be so close that whichever way it goes, it doesn't give that side a real mandate for change.

The unnecessary rhetoric and name-calling, especially from Tsipras and Varoufakis, makes me doubt their motives and the whole referendum feels like an exercise in maintaining power rather than progressing towards a solution.

I hope it turns out well for the Greek public but I think a lot of us are watching in the same way we'd watch a slow motion train wreck, we know this is going to end badly but it's fascinating to watch and a small part of us wants to see just how much of a mess it's going to make.

 

[aardvark]

in hindsight

to be fair there were no shortage of people saying it would be a disaster at the time, and that the greek figures were fudged to get them in.

 

[ricky1981]

to be fair there were no shortage of people saying it would be a disaster at the time, and that the greek figures were fudged to get them in.

100% agreed but they were steam-rolled by those who thought the EU's success was measured by quantity not quality.

 

[Destination]

Stuff about Germans and French.

You speak about due diligence as if it applies to a home loan.
If they'd been applying such things, we'd never have had American sub prime, we'd never have had the crisis in the UK banking sector. There wouldn't have been a 'boom' under Bush and Blair. Anyway enough of that.

I don't care if the German or French helped the Greeks.
Certain countries shouldn't have attempted to swallow their own banks issues.
They could have done an Iceland.
Or in the case of Greece, when the depth of their deceptions over the years prior to Euro entry, and the years of Euro entry were discovered, they should have been cut free and left to recover alone.
This is what they were told at the time, and if they vote Yes today, they will stumble along in this shameful mess for a while longer.
Greek shouldn't have been bailed out, but at the same time, the banks who lied on the governments behalf to get them into the Euro, should be brought to task, as should the politicians of the eras. All of them.

You don't continue to throw bad money after bad. Europe has done with Greece continually, yes some of it is for show, some of it is for unity, some of it is for self-interest, but eventually you draw the line.

 

[Danthus]

Do people still think this is about money?

 

[Destination]

Do people still think this is about money?

Well Pride in a failing concept, when the member you are contemplating getting shot of, actually lied to enter in the first place, is a very odd form of pride.
When deceptions were unveiled, they should have got rid of them, and held their heads up high claiming the concept still works.

Bit like the UK getting rid of Norn iron, as we're a complete waste of money, and do nothing to help ourselves out of the political and social mess we are in. With the best educational system in the UK, producing a demographic 'best' and 'worst' from what's basically the same stock, a benefits system in overdrive, with no budget caps applied yet, and a medical system falling apart through underfunding and mismanagement, but by-God we can march and fly flags, and never work a day in our lives if we want

If something is rotten, you cut it out, no matter how much pride you have.

 

[M1k3H]

You speak about due diligence as if it applies to a home loan.
If they'd been applying such things, we'd never have had American sub prime, we'd never have had the crisis in the UK banking sector. There wouldn't have been a 'boom' under Bush and Blair. Anyway enough of that.

I don't care if the German or French helped the Greeks.
Certain countries shouldn't have attempted to swallow their own banks issues.
They could have done an Iceland.
Or in the case of Greece, when the depth of their deceptions over the years prior to Euro entry, and the years of Euro entry were discovered, they should have been cut free and left to recover alone.
This is what they were told at the time, and if they vote Yes today, they will stumble along in this shameful mess for a while longer.
Greek shouldn't have been bailed out, but at the same time, the banks who lied on the governments behalf to get them into the Euro, should be brought to task, as should the politicians of the eras. All of them.

You don't continue to throw bad money after bad. Europe has done with Greece continually, yes some of it is for show, some of it is for unity, some of it is for self-interest, but eventually you draw the line.

Even if they didn't apply due diligence in the past, shouldn't it be applied now? After the crisis? Isn't that the lesson learned here? If so, why wasn't it applied in the two bailouts?

I agree, Greece should have been left to default, so I guess our disagreement is to whether it is Greece's fault or everyone's fault.