I dont even think Salah was offside. It should be done with the naked eye. There should also be an element of "assistants call" like there is in cricket. Liverpool should be clear at the top of the table but instead due to ridiculously close debatable offsides they arent.
Greenlizard0 PL & Championship Football Thread ** spoilers ** [27th - 30th Nov 2020]
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I dont even think Salah was offside. It should be done with the naked eye. There should also be an element of "assistants call" like there is in cricket. Liverpool should be clear at the top of the table but instead due to ridiculously close debatable offsides they arent.
Just read this from Ste Hoare on twitter :
I questioned it at the time....I thought i twas really odd he didnt watch it twice. He didnt even watch Welbeck fall down! They need to look into that because regardless of if you think its a pen or not that should not be happening.
I questioned it at the time....I thought i twas really odd he didnt watch it twice. He didnt even watch Welbeck fall down! They need to look into that because regardless of if you think its a pen or not that should not be happening.
I think the way to clear up offsides is make that all the body has to be offside same as with ball crossing the line, I know there will still be the odd is he, isn't he moment but if you can see that all their body is past the last man it's clearer than the cuff of his shirt is.
That was my point, I don't think Salah was offside either
Caporegime
No because what happens if you score a goal with your head and it was offside. Only way to make it correct is to replicate something similar to Hawkeye.
Definitely prefer 'daylight' or 'whole body' to what we have now. Should also be easier for linesman and will result in more goals and make games more attacking. Offside at it's ultra basic level is just to stop goal hanging, but it's become such a complex, irritatingly finnicky rule that needs a re-haul.
Caporegime
Whatever measure you use for offside, as long as you are using VAR, there will always be uber marginal calls. If you say their whole torso has to be beyond the last player you will still get the calls where its almost impossible to say and you will still get the question of where the torso is under the shirt etc. It would also put us at a big disadvantage in Europe if our rules don't really closely follow the rest of the world. We ujust have to accept that this is what VAR is. This is what people wanted. Football has been moving towards being a more and more tactical sport and now that VAR is involved we are seeing ridiculous amounts of penalties and lots of goals chalked off due to centimetres when it comes to offside.
I said VAR wasn't a good idea for this sort of thing when it was proposed for exactly these reasons. Its not a game that lends itself to technological decision making. Its really fast paced and massively subjective in so many areas. We now have a game where we are asking "did the defender dare to breathe on the attacker in the box, if so, penalty".
The technology also isn't good enough to be making the decisions its making. The tech isn't good enough to perfectly pick the exact moment a player strikes the ball in order to perfectly capture the two players involved in the offside and yet we are calling things down to the cm.
I said VAR wasn't a good idea for this sort of thing when it was proposed for exactly these reasons. Its not a game that lends itself to technological decision making. Its really fast paced and massively subjective in so many areas. We now have a game where we are asking "did the defender dare to breathe on the attacker in the box, if so, penalty".
The technology also isn't good enough to be making the decisions its making. The tech isn't good enough to perfectly pick the exact moment a player strikes the ball in order to perfectly capture the two players involved in the offside and yet we are calling things down to the cm.
Caporegime
Agreed, changing it to daylight or a full body makes 0 difference. It's just as difficult for linesmen and you'll see the same marginal decisions. The only thing that would change it is the tolerance thing they're doing in Holland.
Changing the actual offside rule, giving forwards a bigger advantage will have huge knock-on effects to how the entire game is played and is something that will need to be trialled extensively before they brought it in.*
I'm really not sold on applying any sort of margin of error either. What issues does it solve? You're still spending the exact same amount of time plotting the points and drawing the lines but at the end of that process you're less likely to be making the correct decision. Why go through all that pain and delays unless it's to get as many correct calls as possible? Imagine a scenario where a last minute goal has been scored or flagged offside in a big match - we could spend minutes plotting the points and drawing the lines and see that the wrong call has been made but because it's close with stuck with the wrong decision!
You mention the Dutch system @Shamikebab but the margin they're using is tiny, to the point that even Watkins yesterday would have still been given offside. Interestingly, Dale Johnson has just mentioned on twitter that the PL wanted to use the same system as the Dutch but FIFA told them they couldn't. The Dutch just didn't ask and went ahead with it.
*The moment you start giving forwards a bigger advantage with offsides then teams will just counter that by defending deeper and deeper and the game will be much worse for it.
I'm really not sold on applying any sort of margin of error either. What issues does it solve? You're still spending the exact same amount of time plotting the points and drawing the lines but at the end of that process you're less likely to be making the correct decision. Why go through all that pain and delays unless it's to get as many correct calls as possible? Imagine a scenario where a last minute goal has been scored or flagged offside in a big match - we could spend minutes plotting the points and drawing the lines and see that the wrong call has been made but because it's close with stuck with the wrong decision!
You mention the Dutch system @Shamikebab but the margin they're using is tiny, to the point that even Watkins yesterday would have still been given offside. Interestingly, Dale Johnson has just mentioned on twitter that the PL wanted to use the same system as the Dutch but FIFA told them they couldn't. The Dutch just didn't ask and went ahead with it.
*The moment you start giving forwards a bigger advantage with offsides then teams will just counter that by defending deeper and deeper and the game will be much worse for it.
Permabanned
Yeah, even what look like perfectly good goals I am quite muted in celebrating because of bloody VAR.
The benefits of VAR are just not worth it.
The benefits of VAR are just not worth it.
Yep, until they have some sort of system that can alert officials instantly then I'd be in favour of scrapping VAR for offsides. And VAR for subjective decisions has always been a waste of time so that should go too. Unfortunately there's no chance of that happening.
For obvious offsides/red cards/penaltes/fouls in build up to goals it feels good, but unfortunately that seems the be the minority of moments.
I was all for it but perhaps was wrong, unsure if its implementation or inherently bad for entertainment
Sadly true on the 'subjective' decisions but feels like that is largely down to standard of refereeing
I was all for it but perhaps was wrong, unsure if its implementation or inherently bad for entertainment
Sadly true on the 'subjective' decisions but feels like that is largely down to standard of refereeing
Caporegime
What's changed between this season and last? Last season FIFA said the Premier League were using VAR too much and not following the clear and obvious guidelines. This season, they're using it even more.
The hatred towards VAR is growing and more people are speaking out against it so hopefully Carragher and Neville started a debate about the real issue last night, the current rules and the PGMOL.
I don't think scrapping VAR for offsides is necessary, just stop with the bloody lines. If they need to start drawing lines it's too tight to call it a clear and obvious error in the first place.
The hatred towards VAR is growing and more people are speaking out against it so hopefully Carragher and Neville started a debate about the real issue last night, the current rules and the PGMOL.
I don't think scrapping VAR for offsides is necessary, just stop with the bloody lines. If they need to start drawing lines it's too tight to call it a clear and obvious error in the first place.
Caporegime
The clear and obvious error isn't for offsides though.
Caporegime
IFAB implied it was last season.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...fside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...fside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html
Caporegime
Its the issue that a huge number of things have. In theory they are a great idea but then the implementation is not as simple.
I said this when they decided to implement it; football is nothing like all the other sports that have implemented technology effective.
Tennis has 2 players and is concerned with very very specific locations and has quite an easy job implementing the technology. It is also a game that constantly accumulates points. 1 bad decision probably won't change the result of a match.
Cricket is very similar. You are mostly looking for bat on ball contact which thermal imaging and sound are perfect for. When it comes to catches perhaps hitting the ground they are in the same boat as football however.
Rugby uses it pretty well but again, its guessing at times but its not using it to check every small detail whenever points are scored.
Football is insanely subjective and the requirements of calling offsides perfectly are very very complex.
You then mix in the fact that VAR looks at incidents and doesn't use even a little bit of common sense. When Martial got sent of for brushing Lemelas face and he went down comically like he had been shot in slow motion. They ignored the nature of the incident, the intent and the provocation and sent him off for another players acting and cheating. All of these things rub people up the wrong way and are turning them away from the sport. Its becoming a comedy of over officiating whilst simultaneously making constantly ridiculous decisions.
I think that one of the big things is also the lack of crowds. The football hasn't been as good, defending seems to have gone to **** (apart from Tottenham it seems!) and this is just another thing that is sucking the sould out of football.
Caporegime
That seems to be a proposal rather than the current system. Currently you're either offside or onside. What the hell would an obvious or non obvious offside be anyway?