Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [28th December 2013 - 1st January 2014]

Having read all that (what a waste of time, but hey got to do something at work) None of that said anything about Valencia and Young leading us to dominate the world, want to try again?
 
you cant even try to win the premiership with 3x unknown quantity wingers...especially as we play with 2x wingers...they would both be fine as a substitute for ronaldo, giggs, or beckham...but to have to play say.. Nani and Valencia in our first team takes the michael.

then throw in obertan and u can see just how far fergie has lowered the standard on the wings.

this is after he has deteriorated our centre midfield quite badly, using people like carrick and scholes, when yes 5 years ago maybe scholes was good.. and carrick.. well...he's no keano. hell i dont even know what he is.

i like berbatov but really fergie blew 30 million on a player we didnt really need him that much. i cant help but feel that Torres, or eve Tevez would have been better overall, especially considering age, effort, and sell on ability..


Having read all that (what a waste of time, but hey got to do something at work) None of that said anything about Valencia and Young leading us to dominate the world, want to try again?

Yet at the same time no one agrees with me re the dilapidation setting into the squad. and suddenly 5 years later you're all like, 'duhhh our squad is rubbish fergie left it bad for moyes'.


Yea but you didn't think that 3 years ago or 5 years ago. And our squad has NOT materially improved in that time frame. SP why didn't you agree then? Why did you all disagree and fight me and not the UTD hierarchy?


Robi...now come come.

I am disappoint now even years later..

Old 14th Jul 2011, 18:26 #7778
Robi
Wise Guy


Joined: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 1,994 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Running Man View Post
Papers saying that nani+20 million for wesley. seriously if fergie does this he should be fired or at least you guys can begin to understand the abuse he gets from some quarters and up the ante to get him out sooner than later.

Nani is really good. we'd practically be giving him away. why cant we offer out valencia instead (well apart from the obvious that we overpaid for him and that inter wouldbt want him)...

Fergie fired? Overpaid for Valencia?

I can't even begin to describe how utterly wrong you are. Please stop speaking.
 
Last edited:
so at the risk of continuing a topic that has been discussed to death, do people feel Moyes will last till the end of the season?

Losing 3 points to Tottenham could end up being crucial when it comes down to deciding the final positions. With over half the season gone and Utd languishing outside of the Europe spots, it's not looking good.

It seems unlikely for Moyes to engineer one of Fergies amazing last 33% form runs where they win the league from nowhere.
 
Does that say that Young and Valencia will help us rule the universe? I don't think it does.

MooMoo, I think it's guaranteed that the summer is the earliest we'll get rid of him. It'll be a miracle if we can manage top 4 tbh, it's going to take more than one of the 5 ish sides that are better than us to take a serious nose dive in form. I doubt we'll strengthen much in January, we might arguably weaken if we sell.
 
Does that say that Young and Valencia will help us rule the universe? I don't think it does..

Regardless, I can find more later when im not at work.

Shows though that I remained consistent in my thoughts on the degradation of our squad and on my position of Valencia being workmanlike for many years now while most fans here were swinging off his short and curleys after a minor blip in his form when he actually did something good once upon a china.

Where have you actively been complaining about our management, signings etc?
 
so at the risk of continuing a topic that has been discussed to death, do people feel Moyes will last till the end of the season?
Yes, no question. The reality has to sink in that;

A) Moyes is no Ferguson, he's a good manager, but nothing more
B) The squad isn't the standard that people thought it was, Evra/Cleverly/Young/Wellbeck are not full Utd quality, and them getting regular games links to A
C) Losing Gill at the same time as Ferguson has proven more damaging than expected. Woodward seemed clueless in the summer over transfers, and the chances of that changing in January are unlikely.
D) Transition periods suck, players dealing with a new manager and coaching staff who have different methods will affect performance. It was always going to happen.

I don't like how this season is going either, but it could be a lot worse. The best manager we've ever had was 13th at this point in his first season. I know it's a different time, but consistency is the key. Becoming like City or Chelsea isn't going to help matters.
 
Does that say that Young and Valencia will help us rule the universe? I don't think it does.

MooMoo, I think it's guaranteed that the summer is the earliest we'll get rid of him. It'll be a miracle if we can manage top 4 tbh, it's going to take more than one of the 5 ish sides that are better than us to take a serious nose dive in form. I doubt we'll strengthen much in January, we might arguably weaken if we sell.

Would you prefer to sell off say 5 players in Jan, bring in 2 or 3 who may take time to adapt, but will be better at the start of next season for having the next 8 months in England playing and training, then bringing a couple more in next season and having a real go then?

My same old thing is, there is zero sign of improvement, change, tactical learning, just Moyes knowing his own players better and using them better. Though Young has improved and Moyes is using him more consistently(which I think is directly responsible for Young looking vastly improved), as with Kagawa's use a month or two ago, it's an enforced change due to injuries not something he went out to do.

Moyes needs to step up and make changes, it doesn't really matter if you get worse, hell no Europe next year means being in the same situation as Liverpool, a vastly reduced game load next year would be a much easier time to shape the squad either under Moyes or a new manager. The key is Moyes doing something that actually shows he has an idea how to get Utd back to the top, if it takes a year or 5 years, a sign that he has a single idea how to improve the team is fairly important isn't it?

Even with lots of changes, there was no fundamental change in Utd yesterday, yes more pressure and a few chances, but that would have happened with no changes. The obvious change was Rooney.... he's playing with pain, with an injury and just back again, and despite losing RVP for overplaying him right back from an injury he in exactly the same way kept him on for fear of the fans.


Personally I think Utd have to bring in a, Hiddink, Heynckes(had to look up spelling :p ), or a completely fresh face, someone who has no fear at all. They need someone to come in make big choices, have no fear of the fans, who will bring off players if they are playing poorly(and Rooney was poor yesterday and looked tired and ineffective later in the game) and who isn't scared to make wholesale changes.
 
I don't like how this season is going either, but it could be a lot worse. The best manager we've ever had was 13th at this point in his first season. I know it's a different time, but consistency is the key. Becoming like City or Chelsea isn't going to help matters.

No it isn't, consistency means nothing without some quality. If Utd brought in Di Canio, were 15th, and they stuck with him, they may end up relegated.

Fergie was stuck with, but it turns out that he was actually a great manager, if he'd been a poor manager and you'd stuck with him..... you'd have been in a terrible situation.

You're talking about hindsight, consistency seems a great thing when you later find out that manager is great. Not every manager is good because you want them to be. regardless of league position you can see a team improving generally, or getting worse. You can buy 10 players and be worse for a while, you might even expect it, but you can see the little moments that let you know the players have that talent and just need a bit more time, same with a manager.

I don't remember clearly Fergie's first period in charge of Utd, too young really and didn't watch almost any of Utd, but I assume there were signs of change that was for the better. Likewise this was a manager who had won things previously, Moyes has done nowt for years. Martinez won a cup with a team on a budget that simply wasn't capable of competing in the prem league but could drag that team to one off big wins, be it cup or league, something Moyes has never been capable of.

Sticking with a manager who is showing said signs of improvement even if they make the team worse in the short term, is sensible. In terms of AVB, the team with every game was getting worse, despite new players, he wasn't getting the best out of the OLD players, who were worse every game. AVB showed over 2 years a distinct refusal to learn from his mistakes. Sticking with him would have been a huge mistake. Martinez's first 3 games with Everton were 3 draws and they looked... odd, but you could instantly see a change in how they played, it took a few games for both several new players to gel with the old players and for a more offensive style to bed in. That is very short term obviously but the signs of change were obvious straight away, even if they hadn't won for 6-7 games you could see a BIG change and give that time.

Moyes has changed nothing..... yet is doing far worse and still in half a season has changed nothing, learned nothing, still has no answers. if he was 15th but had signed 6 new players and the football was improving game to game, I'd say stick with him, when his one signing has been abysmal, and the team is getting no better at all, with no signs of change, sticking with him is daft.
 
Would you prefer to sell off say 5 players in Jan, bring in 2 or 3 who may take time to adapt, but will be better at the start of next season for having the next 8 months in England playing and training, then bringing a couple more in next season and having a real go then?

Sure, I think most Utd fans accept there will be a period of transition. But the problem is you need a period of transition with the potential for improvement, and I just don't see that with Moyes at all.
 
Valid, but my point on consistency is about people wanting him to go now. Utd are 7th, not 17th. They're 5 points from the top four, not 5 points from the bottom four. If Moyes was to go now, who would come in. Far as I can see it, pretty much every top manager is in a good job and wouldn't leave to come to Utd so there's not a whole heap of choice to go with. If Utd were 10th, i'd still be saying to keep him till the end of the season at least. Yes, fighting relegation would be a whole different prospect, but they're not. Perspective is a great thing, you don't go from one of the best managers ever to a trophyless top 6 manager without some hiccups in the first season.
 
Ah, so no evidence then. Carry on.

#n'zogbiawillsaveus

I just looked at the Summer 11 thread and the only regular I can find saying anything good about the Young signing is Tummy and that was hardly anything more than he thought he would do well. Everyone else was either a bit meh or against the idea but happy enough he didn't cost too much on the transfer fee.

I was surprised to be honest that no one was that convinced about it. I thought there would be at least one :D
 
I found more people fighting tooth and nail7 to find plus points re valencia. I'm pretty sure I first paired him with the word workmanlike and consistently slated him from the start when everyone else was wowed at a few fiercely struck crosses.

No one hardly admitted he sucked. But now when we need a goal he plays right back. Funny that.
 
Sure, I think most Utd fans accept there will be a period of transition. But the problem is you need a period of transition with the potential for improvement, and I just don't see that with Moyes at all.

I know, that's exactly what I've been saying for months, and for years with regards to Wenger. I don't care about doing worse, as long as you can see change. Wenger hasn't changed anything for 8 years, this year he actually went out and brought someone fairly top notch.

I think people are being a little fooled by our resurgence, inability to beat top teams and Wenger's fundamental mismanagement of rotation/players for fitness reasons has been a huge reason for failure every year for 8 years. Getting lucky one year with no injuries, Newcastle 5th, Liverpool jumping from outside of Europe to fighting for a title..... a little luck can shoot anyone up the table. Our injuries in the past 2 weeks mounting up is something I suggested would happen in this period for the past 3 months... not hindsight, but knowledge that Wenger still hasn't fixed the fundamental problem that has hurt us for years.

Either way in our case not much changed beyond spending big on one player, who is more and more looking not at all worth 42million, very good player, sure, consistent and THE guy to win the big games... almost entirely not so far.

42mil is the money you would spend on Ronaldo(or similar) and be the difference against Chelsea/City/Utd, not the guy who goes missing in those games.

Valid, but my point on consistency is about people wanting him to go now. Utd are 7th, not 17th. They're 5 points from the top four, not 5 points from the bottom four. If Moyes was to go now, who would come in. Far as I can see it, pretty much every top manager is in a good job and wouldn't leave to come to Utd so there's not a whole heap of choice to go with. If Utd were 10th, i'd still be saying to keep him till the end of the season at least. Yes, fighting relegation would be a whole different prospect, but they're not. Perspective is a great thing, you don't go from one of the best managers ever to a trophyless top 6 manager without some hiccups in the first season.

As above, as I've been saying and Shami said, the position is almost irrelevant, in transition the CHANGE is the ONLY thing that matters. Change might one year take you to bottom half of the table then 2 years later truly competing with Barca/Bayern. Or you can be great for 6 months then get relegated, change is scary and a little unpredictable. The problem with Moyes is there is zero sign of change, none at all.

With no real changes to style/line up, the team really shouldn't be doing worse. It's when a manager comes in and makes it his team you expect the change to make the team better or worse. Benitez came in for RDM, made no changes and got almost identical performance out of the team(within around 1% same win/loss/draw ratio as RDM).

Every hint from Moyes is, too scared to make changes, unable to make the team work as is..... too scared to take injured players off for crying out loud. If ever a manager's actions screamed "I'm not capable in this job" I think it is being scared to sub RVP, seeing him get injured, then a couple weeks later doing it again to Rooney... in both cases in games they were losing and lost anyway.
 
*lots of posts*

It's easy to sit here and be negative all the time (like you are) because we don't play like Barcelona, or now Bayern. Yes, we should be more like those teams (in terms of team quality) but we've been carried by an utterly incredible manager for quite a while now.

We've fallen behind on investing in the team because of this, but that will surely have to be fixed now. The club has behind it some of the most lucrative commercial deals in the business, so it's time to spend that money on the right players. If, as someone will no doubt suggest, we have no money, then we're in all sorts of trouble, but I very much doubt this is the case.

I thought this article raised some interesting points: http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11096/9098542/style-issues

One midfield player won't solve the problems. The winger style isn't working because our wingers are poor. Nani is the only one who can raise his game to an acceptable level and he's often injured or just plays badly.

Putting Kagawa on the wing hasn't worked and it's not where Januzaj is best either. Cross after cross after cross just hit opposition defenders. The midfield is a big problem though, whether we play 2 or 3 central midfielders they're largely incapable of good defensive work, incapable of getting forward, and incapable of good passing. Cleverley for example is an absolute joke.

Moyes has made plenty of questionable decisions, and some of the things he says aren't befitting of a Manchester United manager, but he's certainly not the hopeless idiot that some of you are suggesting. If him and Woodward fail to sign anyone of note (and really, they should be working on this right now in January), then we will have further problems, but surely that won't continue. If Moyes starts getting worse then we'll have to review it, as I'm sure the club will.

Lastly, RvP being out doesn't help. We look much better when we can field him along with Rooney, any team would suffer in a similar situation. Unfortunately the extent to which we suffer further highlights the weakness of the team.

Every hint from Moyes is, too scared to make changes, unable to make the team work as is..... too scared to take injured players off for crying out loud. If ever a manager's actions screamed "I'm not capable in this job" I think it is being scared to sub RVP, seeing him get injured, then a couple weeks later doing it again to Rooney... in both cases in games they were losing and lost anyway.

The only good things he's really done are hung on to Rooney and brought Januzaj through to the first team. Both things SAF would have likely done anyway.

I can't disagree though, he seems very negative overall. Calling a loss to Spurs a "good" thing, or even remotely implying it, is terrible.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom