Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [4th April - 8th April 2014]
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Caporegime
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58% win rate in his first job as a manager. Do you expect every manager to be magically brilliant and not learn on the job? You think Martinez decided to move training sessions to the evening after late games to always ensure a 48 hour rest period, something he says helps massively, in his first games as a manager?
58% win rate, and in 6th, in his first half season as a manager is pretty brilliant. Spurs won precisely no games against top half teams under AVB this season and Tim has won 6 games, including two against Southampton and against a very good Everton.
In what exact way isn't he doing a good job?
Losing by a smaller margin away to Liverpool than AVB did at home? AVB who has managed Porto, Chelsea previously and was being paid probably many times over what Tim is getting?
He's lost in the league to Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Norwich, so 4 teams you wouldn't expect them to beat, 1 dodgy team. Rodgers lost to Hull, Pellegrini to Cardiff and Villa, Wenger to Villa, Mourinho to Villa and Palace and it's debateable if you want to include Stoke in the Mourinho and Wenger results.
So he's had one daft result, and so have all the other best teams in the league, and I didn't bring up Moyes because.... lol
They are playing much better football when they win, iffy football when they lose, though I can't be sure they seem to have had more defensive injuries in since around xmas with Vert/Vlad/fullbacks being more problematic.
I don't think he's been outstanding, but a 58% league win ratio in his first year, losing almost only to teams you fully expect Spurs to be unable to compete with, with one shock result, seems pretty good to me? He also took over a team with no attacking spirit, no confidence and no cohesiveness. He's building in them confidence and goal scoring which will be a massive help for whoever is in charge next year. Would losing a couple less games but also winning less and scoring 1 goal a game help going in to next season? The team as it stood under AVB was utterly clueless, today I would say buy a quality DM, a CB or two and fullbacks and you have a great team.
Didn't Rodgers have a 42% win ratio in the league last year?
Rodgers first 17 games for Liverpool, 23 scored, 24 conceded, 29% win rate, 5 losses, 22 points.
Sherwood 30 scored, 24 conceded, 58% win rate, 5 losses, 32 points.
So, do I think Sherwood is doing a good job, I would have to say......... yes. 58% win rate is where Arsenal are currently for the season and would get you 2nd/3rd in in the last 3 seasons.
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Caporegime
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No, it's worrying. I think AVB thankfully cost them enough points in the first part of the season. If they'd only lost to the top 4 and gotten points at the same rate all season we'd be level or behind them.
I find the media hounding, and fan hounding of Sherwood disgraceful. It's his first season, he's doing brilliantly well for having zero experience of being in charge. He throws his jacket around and it's a sign he shouldn't be a manager. It's laughable how people pick and choose who to hate on. Media/fans pile in on Sherwood because he's lost a few games, because unless he wins every single game he's ****?
he may end up being crap, or brilliant, I have no idea. But he's trying something, he's certainly improved the team and Spurs aren't so disgustingly awful to watch. I enjoyed tonights game, watching Spurs early season was like having teeth pulled.
58% win rate in his first job as a manager. Do you expect every manager to be magically brilliant and not learn on the job? You think Martinez decided to move training sessions to the evening after late games to always ensure a 48 hour rest period, something he says helps massively, in his first games as a manager?
58% win rate, and in 6th, in his first half season as a manager is pretty brilliant. Spurs won precisely no games against top half teams under AVB this season and Tim has won 6 games, including two against Southampton and against a very good Everton.
In what exact way isn't he doing a good job?
Losing by a smaller margin away to Liverpool than AVB did at home? AVB who has managed Porto, Chelsea previously and was being paid probably many times over what Tim is getting?
He's lost in the league to Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Norwich, so 4 teams you wouldn't expect them to beat, 1 dodgy team. Rodgers lost to Hull, Pellegrini to Cardiff and Villa, Wenger to Villa, Mourinho to Villa and Palace and it's debateable if you want to include Stoke in the Mourinho and Wenger results.
So he's had one daft result, and so have all the other best teams in the league, and I didn't bring up Moyes because.... lol
They are playing much better football when they win, iffy football when they lose, though I can't be sure they seem to have had more defensive injuries in since around xmas with Vert/Vlad/fullbacks being more problematic.
I don't think he's been outstanding, but a 58% league win ratio in his first year, losing almost only to teams you fully expect Spurs to be unable to compete with, with one shock result, seems pretty good to me? He also took over a team with no attacking spirit, no confidence and no cohesiveness. He's building in them confidence and goal scoring which will be a massive help for whoever is in charge next year. Would losing a couple less games but also winning less and scoring 1 goal a game help going in to next season? The team as it stood under AVB was utterly clueless, today I would say buy a quality DM, a CB or two and fullbacks and you have a great team.
Didn't Rodgers have a 42% win ratio in the league last year?
Rodgers first 17 games for Liverpool, 23 scored, 24 conceded, 29% win rate, 5 losses, 22 points.
Sherwood 30 scored, 24 conceded, 58% win rate, 5 losses, 32 points.
So, do I think Sherwood is doing a good job, I would have to say......... yes. 58% win rate is where Arsenal are currently for the season and would get you 2nd/3rd in in the last 3 seasons.
Awesome post. Those are the reasons why I would love Sherwood to apprentice under LVG.
Associate
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Even though Sherwood deserves a chance to build his own team, can you really not take up the option to get LVG.
Against top teams he didn't do to bad, wrong red cards, crap refereeing and individual mistakes cost him against most of the top teams except Liverpool.
Against top teams he didn't do to bad, wrong red cards, crap refereeing and individual mistakes cost him against most of the top teams except Liverpool.
Caporegime
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From the outside, there is absolutely no way to judge Sherwood. Results are good, but where is it going. Has he got the capacity to motivate the team to do better against bigger teams? Has he got the eye for talent that means he can effectively replace the defence over 2 seasons and have them playing great. None of this is known. Will he improve as a manager over time, try new things, reverse changes that don't work. We don't know how he's training players, how he plans to improve. He could be the type of manager to fly all over Europe talking to top managers/trainers/coaches and learning, or the guy who thinks his way is already best and refuses to learn anything new. He might not be much of a manager at all but simply having AVB out from over their heads has lifted the players hugely, letting them play their own game without what appeared to be a control freak in charge.
People like to ignore that 90% of managers will try new things every season. Be it Martinez and moving training to times players aren't used to for the recovery time after matches, or having players stay overnight at facilities at the training ground so they can train or be in physio longer/harder without travelling for hours a day for more than one session. But some of these changes, no matter the level of the manager, won't work.
You can't know tactic Y doesn't work with this team, until you try it, but you might find that 2 personnel changes and tactic Y suddenly works brilliantly. Managers will make tactical mistakes and lose games because of them, but finding the right formula that makes your team win is dependant on trying new line ups/formations/instructions/tactics. No manager hits the nail on the head first time.
He MIGHT be a great manager, he might be woeful in the transfer market, or continually go back to a non working tactic because he can't learn beyond it. You simply can't judge fairly any manager in half a season, and to some degree for several years. Some managers will learn a lot while screwing up a lot, do terribly with some team but be much better for his next job with much of that learning out of the way.
With Spurs it's a tough question, an experienced manager who has his way of working, and it works well, is likely to do better sooner than Sherwood. But then, can Spurs really break the top four anyway, even the top 5 longer term. 90mil wages doable, they are some 60-90million down on City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd, Liverpool are closer to Arsenal than Spurs in wage spend and have higher commercial income.
You put a world class manager in at Spurs and while they can have a good year now and then, sustained top four finishes are exceptionally unlikely, same goes for Everton. As much as I like Everton/Martinez they have an exceptionally tough run of games compared to Arsenal. The latter fully capable of throwing it away but I think any of a few dozen half decent managers would have kept a significant gap to Everton this year.
Ultimately Spurs don't have a lot to lose sticking with Sherwood and seeing what he can do, potentially saving more money for the team not paying big manager wages. Put Mourinho, Ancelotti, Pellegrini in the Spurs job, they aren't going to get CL consistently anyway.
For me AVB showed over several seasons the absolute unwillingness to learn or change AT ALL. He was a guy who started winning(in a one horse league) decided his tactics were the only way to win, everything he did was brilliant and everyone must play his way. He lost Chelsea/Spurs dressing rooms, seemed not well liked, had little big man complex and effectively refused to change losing tactics. Chelsea and Spurs got worse over time under him. He was winning some games, but a low ratio this year, but the football was dire, completely unable to beat top half teams at all, terrible scoring, killed Soldado's game entirely, got nothing better out of a single player under him. But for the bottom half being even worse this season Spurs could have been struggling badly.
People like to ignore that 90% of managers will try new things every season. Be it Martinez and moving training to times players aren't used to for the recovery time after matches, or having players stay overnight at facilities at the training ground so they can train or be in physio longer/harder without travelling for hours a day for more than one session. But some of these changes, no matter the level of the manager, won't work.
You can't know tactic Y doesn't work with this team, until you try it, but you might find that 2 personnel changes and tactic Y suddenly works brilliantly. Managers will make tactical mistakes and lose games because of them, but finding the right formula that makes your team win is dependant on trying new line ups/formations/instructions/tactics. No manager hits the nail on the head first time.
He MIGHT be a great manager, he might be woeful in the transfer market, or continually go back to a non working tactic because he can't learn beyond it. You simply can't judge fairly any manager in half a season, and to some degree for several years. Some managers will learn a lot while screwing up a lot, do terribly with some team but be much better for his next job with much of that learning out of the way.
With Spurs it's a tough question, an experienced manager who has his way of working, and it works well, is likely to do better sooner than Sherwood. But then, can Spurs really break the top four anyway, even the top 5 longer term. 90mil wages doable, they are some 60-90million down on City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd, Liverpool are closer to Arsenal than Spurs in wage spend and have higher commercial income.
You put a world class manager in at Spurs and while they can have a good year now and then, sustained top four finishes are exceptionally unlikely, same goes for Everton. As much as I like Everton/Martinez they have an exceptionally tough run of games compared to Arsenal. The latter fully capable of throwing it away but I think any of a few dozen half decent managers would have kept a significant gap to Everton this year.
Ultimately Spurs don't have a lot to lose sticking with Sherwood and seeing what he can do, potentially saving more money for the team not paying big manager wages. Put Mourinho, Ancelotti, Pellegrini in the Spurs job, they aren't going to get CL consistently anyway.
For me AVB showed over several seasons the absolute unwillingness to learn or change AT ALL. He was a guy who started winning(in a one horse league) decided his tactics were the only way to win, everything he did was brilliant and everyone must play his way. He lost Chelsea/Spurs dressing rooms, seemed not well liked, had little big man complex and effectively refused to change losing tactics. Chelsea and Spurs got worse over time under him. He was winning some games, but a low ratio this year, but the football was dire, completely unable to beat top half teams at all, terrible scoring, killed Soldado's game entirely, got nothing better out of a single player under him. But for the bottom half being even worse this season Spurs could have been struggling badly.
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What???
He actually got the ball back under control... he got the ball out to Sturridge who missed.
Soldato
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Spurs fans i know dont like Sherwood, basically because they think he should be doing better as the squad they have this season is much better than last season, he certainly has a better squad than Rodgers did when he started.
My thinking is with the pace of the ball, Flanagans touch would have possibly put it straight out of play if Adrian hadn't touched either of them. Though, I'm a keeper too so again may see it different from most. If anything, Adrian should have been more convincing and gone with 2 low hands to try and stop the ball, not just push it away with one.What???
He shouldn't have made a very clear and intentional movement with his other hand to grab Flanagan's foot. Even if you don't think the initial trip was a foul I'm not sure how the 2nd contact isn't. He's quite clearly tried to grab his foot to stop him getting to the ball.
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Was at the game tonight. Crawley didn't even wake up until 2nd half.
Bees looking good for promotion.
Caporegime
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Good to see, a few too many points dropped while Wolves played well was looking a bit worrying but Orient have been dropping points to.
In the championship Millwall(against Uwe) and Charlton doing themselves a big favour with wins. Yeovil looking like going down almost for sure while any of the bottom 6 look like they are in serious danger of going down.
Leicester getting far to drunk at the weekend got spanked 4-1 at home for only their second loss. Also giving Brighton a great chance of getting past Reading into the playoffs now. Would like to see Uwe take Wigan back to the prem though, especially at QPR/Redknapps expense.
In the championship Millwall(against Uwe) and Charlton doing themselves a big favour with wins. Yeovil looking like going down almost for sure while any of the bottom 6 look like they are in serious danger of going down.
Leicester getting far to drunk at the weekend got spanked 4-1 at home for only their second loss. Also giving Brighton a great chance of getting past Reading into the playoffs now. Would like to see Uwe take Wigan back to the prem though, especially at QPR/Redknapps expense.
Great result tonight, but expected... We always play well against Leicester, and they have just been promoted. Left it too late though.... Where was all this attacking play when we were playing ten-man Barnsley, and only had one shot on target the whole game!
Nobody wants to get in the playoffs this year! Forest have dropped like a stone as usual, and Reading seem to be following them. Bournemouth are the form-team. Playing very well.
Nobody wants to get in the playoffs this year! Forest have dropped like a stone as usual, and Reading seem to be following them. Bournemouth are the form-team. Playing very well.
Was a bit of a strange game, similar to most of ours recently. We dominated the game throughout but were wasteful in front of goal, and in the end it was a fumble that won us the game. We played well though, and only need two wins and a draw from our final five games.
Only the second time since WW2 that we've been outside the bottom two divisions. Plus our academy is coming along nicely - just hired the Norwich academy goalkeeping coach to work alongside the three senior Arsenal coaches we nicked too!
Would be very keen for Brighton, QPR and Bournemouth to stay down, with Millwall and Charlton to stay up, and then Fulham to get the drop as well - need a load of local games next season, seeing as we've only had one London fixture this season. I'm getting bored of rainy days in Carlisle and Crewe!
I can beat that. Away at Stockport on a Tuesday night a few years back. Didn't stop raining!
Oh and none of those teams will go up, Wigan will win the playoffs
I can beat that. Away at Stockport on a Tuesday night a few years back. Didn't stop raining!
Oh and none of those teams will go up, Wigan will win the playoffs
Uwe is 0 for 1 in Play Off finals, but that may have been an off day. He's turned them into a very decent side, but they do have an awful lot of resources at hand.
My worst away day was Hartlepool last season. Went on my own. It was a 5.25pm kick off, so no trains back. Had to stay in the wonderful Best Western, with bird crap on the inside of the windows and a lively bar downstairs - with coked-up locals smashing seven shades of **** out of each other. Penultimate game of the season, playing an already relegated team and a chance to go into the final match in an automatic spot. We scraped a 1-1.
The game was also on Sky Sports... so I could have just stayed at home and watched it
