GregI Mesh Network Advice

[Meddling-Monk]

People might just want to get away from a rate-adaptive service that turns to crap every time the weather is bad. 40/10 FTTP is perfectly adequate for the average work-from-home office user assuming they are the only person using it - that's enough bandwidth for the highest quality video calls, VDI, 4K streaming services etc.

Or when more people take the service, it's not just congestion, it's also crosstalk interference noise as well potentially at the cabinet or along the way. So annoying. (Another reason I left BT although not the main reasons)

 

[ChrisD.]

People might just want to get away from a rate-adaptive service that turns to crap every time the weather is bad. 40/10 FTTP is perfectly adequate for the average work-from-home office user assuming they are the only person using it - that's enough bandwidth for the highest quality video calls, VDI, 4K streaming services etc.

Exactly why I had my mum switch to it. It’s cheaper than FTTC was, faster and so far it’s been flawless. Her FTTC used to die randomly before.

 

[GregI]

Update. Decided on the paths of action.

1: Gonna try the Smart Hub 2. People are basically giving away sealed units on the bay so may aswell give it a try before going for more exotic measures. I might actually get the Business version though because apparently on that you can full modem mode only which will be handy for options 2, 3 and 4 below (saves having to buy some tattered old HG612 modem). I can't find what CPU is in the Smart Hub 1 but the Smart Hub 2 is some bog standard dual core 1Ghz. Will likely still be bad for ping spikes.

2: Every place seems to revel in the Asus RT-AX86U. Another forum said weaker Asus AC models were covering 3 story while the router was placed in a basement so I have high hopes for it. Also it will eliminate ping spikes with a quad core 1.8 Ghz cpu. Rated for 35+ concurrent devices which I'll never reach. Will be £210.99

3: If the option 2 single router is still kinda bad but fixes the ping problems ans is generally nice (it has supprot for Merlin firmware) I'll wait a couple months then just add another and mesh them (with powerline backhaul if I have to). Kind of expensive at the end of the day though. coming in around £400.

4: RT-AX92U. Much weaker specs than the above option 2 (only dual core 1.8Ghz but that's still 0.8 more than the Smart Hub to process data). Plus I guess it has better IPC... do router chips even get IPC improvements lol. It will however... well I hope solve the range issues being a 2 pack and that will be £322.99

5: If the Smart Hub 2 is somehow decent with ping, scrap options 2-4 and just get the premium whole home 3 disc kit for £180~ and bang one on each floor. Would get everything done for under £200.

Now I know if you read my previous posts and the above you will be like "why tf is this moron now wanting to go BT?". Well good question. I hope I can help answer it.

There are some interesting leaks regarding BT happening around late February 2023: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/bt-smart-hub-3-launch.39068/

A Smart Hub 3 with Wi fi 6 and 2.5 Gbps ports is coming. However, leaks indicate that it's not coming directly from BT and they will release it as a model for anyone picking up EE (they want EE to be the flagship brand). BT customers will be able to migrate over to EE and get the SH 3 if they recontract. Speculation that anything over Full Fibre 500 will now only be offered to EE customers.

 

[ChrisD.]

Stop blindly spending money on items which may not cure your issue.

 

[Armageus]

saves having to buy some tattered old HG612 modem

Except that's actually a good option so that you can separate out your Modem from your Router, and then also separate out your Wifi.
If you really don't want a HG612 then get a Draytek or Netgear VDSL Modem. Personally I'd get a cheap HG612, as it's unlikely you will ever need GFast support, so no point spending extra on the Draytek for example. When FTTP becomes available, you simply dump the HG612, and connect the ONT directly to your router.

The best option for you ideally is to get a HG612 to cover your current VDSL needs, you can then use it with any Router (e.g. Edgerouter, or even PFSense mini PC), and then separate out your Wifi to dedicated access points e.g. Unifi and place them where they actually need to be (i.e. centre of house, not where the router traditionally would be i.e. next to the phone socket).

I can't find what CPU is in the Smart Hub 1 but the Smart Hub 2 is some bog standard dual core 1Ghz. Will likely still be bad for ping spikes.

2: Every place seems to revel in the Asus RT-AX86U........ Also it will eliminate ping spikes with a quad core 1.8 Ghz cpu.

4: RT-AX92U. Much weaker specs than the above option 2 (only dual core 1.8Ghz but that's still 0.8 more than the Smart Hub to process data). Plus I guess it has better IPC... do router chips even get IPC improvements lol.

It doesn't matter what CPU is in a router - you can't compare clock speeds or even core counts between different routers as they often use different architectures, and also different underlying OSes. Additionally a lot of routers offer hardware acceleration, so that the CPU isn't even used for some of the processing that goes on.

3: I'll wait a couple months then just add another and mesh them (with powerline backhaul if I have to). Kind of expensive at the end of the day though. coming in around £400.

Don't waste money on mesh or powerline - just do it right. Hard wire proper ethernet to any access points that you need.

4: RT-AX92U. well I hope solve the range issues being a 2 pack and that will be £322.99

A new router will not solve any range issues - all access points/wifi routers have to obey transmit power limits - there aren't more powerful units. Correct placement and quantity of access points is all you need to control.

5: If the Smart Hub 2 is somehow decent with ping, scrap options 2-4 and just get the premium whole home 3 disc kit for £180~ and bang one on each floor. Would get everything done for under £200.

Just No

A Smart Hub 3 with Wi fi 6 and 2.5 Gbps ports is coming. However, leaks indicate that it's not coming directly from BT and they will release it as a model for anyone picking up EE (they want EE to be the flagship brand). BT customers will be able to migrate over to EE and get the SH 3 if they recontract. Speculation that anything over Full Fibre 500 will now only be offered to EE customers.

Worry about 2.5Gbps as and when you actually need it.

If you separate out your Modem/Router/Wifi, then you can upgrade each part independently as required.

 

[ChrisD.]

OP will follow their own narrative and ignore all useful advice anyway.

CPU helping ping spikes? That’s comedy. Sounds like something straight out of Asus’s marketing material.

Ping spikes over Wi-Fi are most likely caused by interference or channels being congested. I’m fairly certain this has been pointed out already.

 

[GregI]

@ChrisD. You can't say "Stop blindly spending money on items which may not cure your issue." then come up with some more stuff like "OP will follow their own narrative and ignore all useful advice anyway." without even giving me a chance to respond to what Armageus said.

Whoever said the ping spikes were over wi-fi? It was ethernet. Pretty sure I mentioned that earlier but if not I hope that helps explain and I apologise for not being clearer.

My thought process being: Well the only stuff that has changed recently is more devices being added and since the spikes only happen when other devices are active even all idle on the network, it seems like a good idea to blame something that can't process data fast enough, the cpu. If it's 1am and others devices are completely off then no ping spikes. I was thinking like a quad core or whatever would more be able to handle those clients attached more evenly across the cores leading to less problems. Obviously thinking about it now it does sound stupid that the cpu on a router would help this but I just try to think of every possibility I can.

@Armageus I'll try to respond to your points if that's ok.

"A new router will not solve any range issues - all access points/wifi routers have to obey transmit power limits - there aren't more powerful units. Correct placement and quantity of access points is all you need to control."

I do understand this but again my thought process: The Smart Hub is ~2011 tech that tops out at 802.11ac (If I'm wrong on this my apologies). Now the mesh systems I looked at have 802.11ax as the wireless backhaul (tri band) which I believe has better range than the BT Smart Hub can ever have (between nodes anyway) because of this. I just place the 802.11ax nodes a couple feet infront before the wireless range issues are happening and since better range, it should then make those wireless deadspots not wireless deadspots anymore.

"Just No"

Not to be rude but can you elaborate on this? Why is the system bad for what I require? I did some reading on them and apparently you can ethernet backhaul BETWEEN nodes and not have to go through the router at all which then means cabling can be done much easier then.

"If you separate out your Modem/Router/Wifi, then you can upgrade each part independently as required."

Ordered the HG612 as you suggested/advised. Will be a good modular addition to the network.

Finally, Chris I'm not against taking advice. It's just if I see advice I want it to be backed up and explained thoroughly to see if it jives. To me "Just No" doesn't really help. It's like in the RAM section here and someone asks if 16GB of 2800C30 for £200 is good value for a 5950x CPU and I type "Just no" to the person then nothing happens. That person gets 0 value and nobody else that happens to read that also wanting to learn about RAM doesn't either. However, if I explain stuff like cas latency and how AMD performs best with 3200/3600 RAM and show reputable sources with benchmarks to corroborate the claims then everybody wins. That guy ended up learning and feeling well informed about his purchase and anyone else getting introduced to RAM aswell.

Like the "just get access points" stuff above. Well could you maybe recommend some models when you say access points are the way to go? Why this model? Good personal experience with them? Just little stuff like that you know.

Edit: So still no responses.

 

[Armageus]

Whoever said the ping spikes were over wi-fi? It was ethernet. Pretty sure I mentioned that earlier but if not I hope that helps explain and I apologise for not being clearer.

My thought process being: Well the only stuff that has changed recently is more devices being added and since the spikes only happen when other devices are active even all idle on the network, it seems like a good idea to blame something that can't process data fast enough, the cpu. If it's 1am and others devices are completely off then no ping spikes. I was thinking like a quad core or whatever would more be able to handle those clients attached more evenly across the cores leading to less problems. Obviously thinking about it now it does sound stupid that the cpu on a router would help this but I just try to think of every possibility I can.

Ping spikes sounds like a separate problem - it may well be router related, but again consumer routers probably don't give you enough control or visibility to troubleshoot this. Likely a router running cake or fq_codel would help.

@Armageus I'll try to respond to your points if that's ok.

"A new router will not solve any range issues - all access points/wifi routers have to obey transmit power limits - there aren't more powerful units. Correct placement and quantity of access points is all you need to control."

I do understand this but again my thought process: The Smart Hub is ~2011 tech that tops out at 802.11ac (If I'm wrong on this my apologies). Now the mesh systems I looked at have 802.11ax as the wireless backhaul (tri band) which I believe has better range than the BT Smart Hub can ever have (between nodes anyway) because of this. I just place the 802.11ax nodes a couple feet infront before the wireless range issues are happening and since better range, it should then make those wireless deadspots not wireless deadspots anymore.

AX doesn't have better range than AC, and all the wireless backhaul means, is that it has a dedicated radio to communicate with other mesh units, rather than using the bandwidth of the radios used to connect to devices.

"Just No"

Not to be rude but can you elaborate on this? Why is the system bad for what I require? I did some reading on them and apparently you can ethernet backhaul BETWEEN nodes and not have to go through the router at all which then means cabling can be done much easier then.

You said you wanted to get away from BT Hardware, so I don't know why you'd entertain them.
Mesh systems aren't generally ideal - they are a "kludge", by flooding the area with overlapping wifi, hopefully you improve the signal strength.
However, in reality you can end up having too much signal, too many reflections, and end up with lots of "poor quality" signal, even if the strength is improved.
When most people ask about Mesh solutions, they have no intention of using the wired backhaul, as are just out for an "easy fix". But unless you use wired backhaul (or more expensive mesh with a dedicated backhaul radio), they you are instantly reducing what bandwidth you have available.
Additionally most Mesh systems only give you limited control and visibility over what is going on. If you go for prosumer/SME access points e.g. Ubiquiti Unifi, then you can at least see what is happening, and have more options to troubleshoot poor performance.

"If you separate out your Modem/Router/Wifi, then you can upgrade each part independently as required."

Ordered the HG612 as you suggested/advised. Will be a good modular addition to the network.

Good starting point. Next step is to separate your router and wifi functions, so you can get Wifi deployed in the best places.

Like the "just get access points" stuff above. Well could you maybe recommend some models when you say access points are the way to go? Why this model? Good personal experience with them? Just little stuff like that you know.

Unifi Access points had already been mentioned.

Edit: So still no responses.

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