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GTX 275 listed at 249 euro

I think that when Nvidia 'launch' the 275 it will be at the same price as the 4890 but there will be no stock, when stock finally does turn up in dribs and drabs it will be at a higher price.

Nvidia have nothing to launch on 2nd April but they need to try and stop sales of 4890.
 
With the GTX 260 216sp available for £150, anything over £200 will be too much. I just received a pair of Gainward 260's that each overclock to 729core 1566shader and 2520mem. I doubt the new 275's will clock much better (if any) and an extra 24sp's are not worth £75 to £100.

The GTX260 is the bargain performance card of the moment. At stock it is roughly equal to a 4870 1GB, but overclocked it will beat a stock GTX 280 and come close to stock 285's.
 
the disturbing thing is that if Charlie's right(and however he posts, he's got nothing wrong yet), then they are sending out 280's to be reviewed and telling everyone they are essentially makin ga 275 with a slightly gimped bus, but the cards actually sold will be 260's at a higher cost, which frankly is FAR worse than anything Nvidia have done to date. Call a 280 a 9999, but the reviews still give it the same specs and show the same performance, its bad, its trying to hoodwink the people but its not actually lying about what you'll be buying.

But sending out the highest possible spec which its not expecting anyone to sell is flat out lying, the benchmarks won't match the cards you can buy, its the worst thing Nvidia will have done to date IF its true. Frankly with everything Nvidia's done to date I have no reason to not believe it either.

Again if true they are basically telling the AIB's they can call either a 260 or a 280 with specific clock ratio's "275's" and its up to them if they use a cheaper 260 or a more expensive 280(which will mean a loss to them, it would be ludicrous for them to go with the 280 and sell it for less, than a 260 and sell it for more).

I wouldn't be surprised if reference to the lower spec version of the 275 is mentioned in reviews, but all the review models are the higher spec, then they'll release both versions neither in stock and after a couple weeks as tiny stock trickles in only the lower end version will ever make it into stock.
 
The GTX260 is the bargain performance card of the moment. At stock it is roughly equal to a 4870 1GB, but overclocked it will beat a stock GTX 280 and come close to stock 285's.

I agree it is the bargain at the moment but having compared performance at 1920x1200 on Anands yesterday to a 512MB 4870 they are on a par. I was going to do a sidegrade to a 216 core 260 to save power at idle and gain a small amount of performance but was suprised to find they are roughly equal at that res.
 
I agree it is the bargain at the moment but having compared performance at 1920x1200 on Anands yesterday to a 512MB 4870 they are on a par. I was going to do a sidegrade to a 216 core 260 to save power at idle and gain a small amount of performance but was suprised to find they are roughly equal at that res.
At stock the cards are similar but when overclocked the 260 wins. ATI pushed the 4870 cores very close to their limits, whereas NVidia left plenty of "slack". All 200 series cards get big gains from overclocking but with ATI only the 4850 shows similar improvements. My 4850 was very close to 4870 performance when clocked to 750MHz, so much so that I think the benefits of GDDR5 were overrated.

The 285 is a great card. Well done OP.
 
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At stock the cards are similar but when overclocked the 260 wins. ATI pushed the 4870 cores very close to their limits, whereas NVidia left plenty of "slack". All 200 series cards get big gains from overclocking but with ATI only the 4850 shows similar improvements. My 4850 was very close to 4870 performance when clocked to 750MHz, so much so that I think the benefits of GDDR5 were overrated.

The 285 is a great card. Well done OP.

The benefits of GDDR5 is not overrated, it just that the 4870 does not make the most of it & as you said 4850 very close & its close but not equal because maybe GDDR3 was at its limit.

Also GDDR5 is easer & cheaper to trace out & does not require equal trace lengths making the routing less complex & costly.
 
Also GDDR5 is easer & cheaper to trace out & does not require equal trace lengths making the routing less complex & costly.
I guess it is the very high latencies of GDDR5 that allow for these unequal trace lengths, and which ultimately restricts it's supremacy over GDDR3. As GDDR5 made fabrication so much easier I am surprised ATI's new cards are still based on a 256Mbit bus. 384 or 512bit would be nice but that would also complicate GPU design and size.
 
I guess it is the very high latencies of GDDR5 that allow for these unequal trace lengths, and which ultimately restricts it's supremacy over GDDR3. As GDDR5 made fabrication so much easier I am surprised ATI's new cards are still based on a 256Mbit bus. 384 or 512bit would be nice but that would also complicate GPU design and size.

Its not the latency at all.
GDDR5 uses a feature called Clock Data Recovery, where the memory clock speed is actually generated out of the data stream. Upon power-up, a system using GDDR5 memory actually "trains" the interface between the memories and the host device (the graphics chip, in this case). Command and address clocks are synced up, the data clock is derived from the signal on memory reads, the data/address/command clocks are de-skewed to align signals properly. This "training" process helps produce cleaner signaling and is one way the standard achieves high clock rates.

It also makes designs that use GDDR5 more tolerant of different trace wire lengths than GDDR3 or GDDR4. Currently, board designs using high-speed memories are tricky. A lot of care has to be taken to make sure the trace wires are all the same length, so they're a mess of zig-zagging routes. Combine this with the extra wires and board layers required for wider memory busses, and graphics cards get expensive, difficult to build, and prone to failure. The clock training system of GDDR5 should, in theory, help alleviate some of that.

PCB Routing
click on image for full view

We've only just scratched the surface of the tricks GDDR5 uses to provide more bandwidth without increasing pin count or voltage. For instance, the protocol features error detection (but not correction) in both read and write directions, allowing the interfaces to re-request a bad error transmission. This boosts reliability at high clock speeds, and should be fun for overclockers (you might, in some cases, boost to a higher clock speed but see lower real-world bandwidth as you introduce errors that need to be re-requested).

Address and data bus inversion lowers power consumption. Typically in a data stream, you say that positive voltage is a "1" and no voltage during a clock cycle is a "0". Well, if you have more 1s than 0s in a data transmission block you simply send along an addition bit saying "flip that so that the no-power states are 1s and the power states are 0s." This means that no data or address block will ever have more than half of its signal containing voltage, regardless of what data is in there. Continued...

One of the key issues, from a board design perspective, is how man chips, and how they'll lay out. GDDR5 will support chips with 16 DRAM banks, enabling fewer, higher capacity chips, which should simplify board designs a bit.

What we really want to know, from the end-user perspective, is where the rubber will meet the road. Exactly how much bandwidth will we get? How much will it cost? What products will use it, and when will we be able to buy them?

Bandwidth first: A system using GDDR3 memory on a 256-bit memory bus running at 1800MHz (effective DDR speed) would deliver 57.6 GB per second. Think of a GeForce 9600GT, for example. The same speed GDDR5 on the same bus would deliver 115.2 GB per second, or twice that amount. Take any GDDR3 bandwidth on a given clock rate and bus width and double it, and you get GDDR5's bandwidth. Of course, the marketing guys love big numbers and would undoubtedly not call it 1800MHz, just as 1800MHz GDDR3 is really running at 900MHz. Expect the marketing guys to call memory at that speed 3200MHz.

When will we see it in products? AMD has confirmed that at least some of their upcoming "700 series" graphics cards, surely called the Radeon HD 4000 series, will use GDDR5. It hasn't said what the clock speed will be, or which of the products will use it. There's also no word on availability yet, but expect products "soon." GDDR5 is on track to be ratified by JEDEC later this summer (products with new memory types often ship before final JEDEC ratification). Nvidia has not yet divulged their GDDR5 plans, if any, and they're unlikely to talk about it at all if their rivals at AMD will be first out of the gate.

What about cost. This stuff is going to cost a fortune, right? Well, yes and no. High-speed GDDR3 and GDDR4 memory is certainly expensive. We're told to expect GDDR5 to initially cost something like 10–20% more than the really high speed GDDR3. Of course, you don't buy memories, you buy a graphics card. Though the memory will cost more, it will be offset somewhat in other places on the product you buy. You don't need as wide a memory interface which means a smaller chip with fewer pins. The board doesn't need to contain as many layers to support wider memory busses, and the trace wire design can be a bit more simple and straightforward, reducing board design costs. As production ramps up, GDDR5 could be as cost effective overall as GDDR3. It will only be appropriate for relatively high-end cards at first, but should be affordable enough for the $80–150 card segment over the next couple years.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2309887,00.asp
 
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