Guild Wars 2

jonneymendoza said:
any of u guys married? i am so i am a casual gamer. anyone thats married and is a hardcore gamer will be divorced soon :)
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depends what people count as "hardcore" and wether your wife has no life of her own.

my wife will happily sit watching tv , browsing the internet on a laptop , go around to her friends etc for a few hours a night by herself...

just because your married doesnt mean you both dont have your own hobbies
 
I'm married and still game.
I've even convinced the wife to play a few MMORPG's with me.

"Proper" MMORPG's should reward those who play a lot over those that don't but at the same time don't reward "grinding".
In the "good old days" of UO it took 6 months+ to GM some of the trade skills and people were really proud when they eventually made it.
These days there might just as well be a "Set blacksmith skill maximum" command in the games - they are that easy to max.
 
stoofa said:
These days there might just as well be a "Set blacksmith skill maximum" command in the games - they are that easy to max.
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Not that I don't agree that the majority of current gen MMO's make the game far too easy because they want to be accessible to the casual market, you have to agree that the "hardcore willing to grind for 6 months" demographic is incredibly small in comparison, the reason games like WoW are so popular is because they managed to give the hardcore people just enough to keep them satisfied whilst still handing out skills and gear like Halloween candy to keep the "I can only play an hour a week but I deserve cool stuff to" crowd happy.

To be honest I don't really care what a game does, if it wants to make itself accessible to people who would rather not have to wait 6 months to be able to actually do anything in game and be able to enjoy it at a decent level from the outset then so be it, I actually don't think games like UO would work or at least be that much of a success these days because the amount of people who are willing to do the major grinding is pretty much asia and they have it covered.

What I do think is that games should have a balance, not every player should be equal purely by the fact they pay a subscription or whatever, if you are willing to spend 20+ hours a week raiding or PvPing then you deserve better reward than the person spending 2 hours a week spamming in general chat and doing a dungeon.

I think the age of the mega grind crazy risk MMO is over, EVE is managing to stay popular because it offers alternatives, you CAN do the crazy risk stuff for high reward but if you would rather not, you have other safer options that due to lower risk offer lower rewards.

It's all about choice, people should always have choices that can lead to the same outcome, not a choice that cockblocks them from an entire part of the game because they can't spend their time doing it.

Like it or not, WoW is one of if now the most popular MMO in history and without it's carebear like attitude it wouldn't be, it's just got a little too far is all.
 
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Fenris said:
I actually don't think games like UO would work or at least be that much of a success these days because the amount of people who are willing to do the major grinding is pretty much asia and they have it covered.
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Thing is that UO wasnt a grind, it took months and months to max a skill yes, but it didnt feel like grinding (at least not to me). It took me almost a year to get my first max skill, I didnt grind it.. I simply played the game normally and the skill progressed as I played. I probably could have sat there and grinded but there wasnt much point, I simply played the game and levelled the skill "naturally". At no point was I locked out of content because I hadnt "kept up" with more intensive players.

This is in a way, a fundamental change in the kinds of people who play MMOs, today that wouldnt be the case. A lot of players these days in MMOs are all about "firsts", or getting things as quickly as possible, in many ways the grinds are created not by the games but by the gamers insisting that they must get x , Y or Z as soon as possible, by doing so creating their own grind. In a way they have forgotten how to play just for fun and have focused on playing for attainment instead.

I actually think its one of the advantages of sandbox MMOs over themepark MMOs, for me at least the sandbox MMO has been simply about playing the game in whatever way , manner and pace you want, whereas the themepark MMO is often been about trying to "keep" up with other people so that you can join them on quests/raids etc due to level differences and so on, the focus being on the next character level or getting the next dps item or the next coloured item. You log in over and over because you are worried that if you dont for several days everyone you know will be X levels ahead of you, or at a different "stage" of the game and you cant do stuff with them anymore. For me, Sandbox MMOs have been about play, play, play and themepark MMOs have been about chase, chase, chase. Though thats perhaps a whole different debate.
 
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Fenris said:
Like it or not, WoW is one of if now the most popular MMO in history and without it's carebear like attitude it wouldn't be, it's just got a little too far is all.
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wow was still popular when it wasnt uber casual friendly.

classic wow is nothing at all like the wow you have now
 
Tombstone said:
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This is in a way, a fundamental change in the kinds of people who play MMOs, today that wouldnt be the case. A lot of players these days in MMOs are all about "firsts", or getting things as quickly as possible, in many ways the grinds are created not by the games but by the gamers insisting that they must get x , Y or Z as soon as possible, by doing so creating their own grind. In a way they have forgotten how to play just for fun and have focused on playing for attainment instead.
...
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Its a fair point, but, its no different to the instant gratification consumerist culture of the day. Attention spans are at an all time low, player demands are at an all time high. Entire player bases behave more like stroppy tweenagers than educated adults.

The reason games like farmville and to an extent leauge of legends are so successful is they do their business in a totally different and unprecedented way. You can play for free, grind up, and get the gear you want. Or, you can spend real world money, and get the gear there and then.

Microtransactions are the future of MMO because it allows for 2 very different play styles. The I want it, i want it now, and the ill work for it and earn it can peacfully coexist, albeit the earn it will begrude the bought it just as the working class begrude the upper.

However, this is all very offtopic and should perhaps be done in a different thread. Keeping my eye on GW2, interesting to see where it goes :)
 
arknor said:
depends what people count as "hardcore" and wether your wife has no life of her own.

my wife will happily sit watching tv , browsing the internet on a laptop , go around to her friends etc for a few hours a night by herself...

just because your married doesnt mean you both dont have your own hobbies
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Agree with you completely, if your gf/wife is independent and doesn't rely on you to entertain herself then playing hours a day is fine. If you a gf that constantly requires your attention then it's a different story.

+1
 
Tombstone said:
Thing is that UO wasnt a grind, it took months and months to max a skill yes, but it didnt feel like grinding (at least not to me). It took me almost a year to get my first max skill, I didnt grind it.. I simply played the game normally and the skill progressed as I played. I probably could have sat there and grinded but there wasnt much point, I simply played the game and levelled the skill "naturally". At no point was I locked out of content because I hadnt "kept up" with more intensive players.

This is in a way, a fundamental change in the kinds of people who play MMOs, today that wouldnt be the case. A lot of players these days in MMOs are all about "firsts", or getting things as quickly as possible, in many ways the grinds are created not by the games but by the gamers insisting that they must get x , Y or Z as soon as possible, by doing so creating their own grind. In a way they have forgotten how to play just for fun and have focused on playing for attainment instead.

I actually think its one of the advantages of sandbox MMOs over themepark MMOs, for me at least the sandbox MMO has been simply about playing the game in whatever way , manner and pace you want, whereas the themepark MMO is often been about trying to "keep" up with other people so that you can join them on quests/raids etc due to level differences and so on, the focus being on the next character level or getting the next dps item or the next coloured item. You log in over and over because you are worried that if you dont for several days everyone you know will be X levels ahead of you, or at a different "stage" of the game and you cant do stuff with them anymore. For me, Sandbox MMOs have been about play, play, play and themepark MMOs have been about chase, chase, chase. Though thats perhaps a whole different debate.
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This is spot on.
Every single game since UO I keep seeing the same old "It's such a grind doing such and such".
It is the attitude that the game is "beatable".
And as long as you use levels and set a maximum level then that is the attitude many will have.
When a game is entirely skill based it means a day old character can join in with a group of 5+ year veterans.
The veterans can attempt to keep the new guy alive, the new guy can gain important skills.
With the modern game you have to join with people of the same "level" as you - or at least similar.

Games such as WOW have a narative than generally needs to be followed.
Create Chacter A
Max character A as quickly as possible.
Camp the instances/monsters that give Character A the best weapons for that class/race
The end - max character, best weapons and armour no chance of losing them.

In the "sandbox" world there is no end.
Even when you've maxed your character (which isn't easy to do) there is just so much "open world" to play with.
I know UO players who after a few years logged to do nothing but decorate houses and chat to friends.

I very much doubt there is a player of a mdoern MMORPG who does this - it's log in, do the "grind" they have created and attempt to beat the game.
 
I have to admit to having not really played MMOs, I was on WoW for all of 2 months and AoC for even less... I've always found Guild Wars very enjoyable though.
I hadn't watched the latest GW2 gameplay videos until now, it looks great! Really liking everything they've shown so far. :)

The OcUK guild back in the day was great fun!

Edit: I dunno about everybody else, but for me with my extreme casualness... I only ever logged in to do quests. :D
Screw the grind.
 
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You make it sound like UO somehow had a superior race of players. People logging in to chat means nothing, people can do that on any MMO if they don't want to use actual chat programs.

It was ridiculous the number of idiots and ignorant reviewers who would criticise GW because lvl20 was the max and you could reach it easily when reaching lvl20 meant the game was really only just beginning.
 
lol, that's almost as bad as the complaints because "you can't jump".

The level was/is almost meaningless in GW, if you don't have a solid set of skills behind you then you're nothing.
Half the benefit of doing the story or going up against some bosses was for the skills you could earn/capture.
 
Emlyn_Dewar said:
I've always found Guild Wars very enjoyable though.
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From what I played of GW it had some nice aspects to it, seemed like it was a good game. It was just the intense instancing which put me off, I tend to like as little instancing (preferably none) as possible in MMOs. Had it been less instanced I think I might have stuck with GW a lot longer. I'm glad to see that GW has pushed more towards openness and its a definite plus point imo.
 
Emlyn_Dewar said:
lol, that's almost as bad as the complaints because "you can't jump".

The level was/is almost meaningless in GW, if you don't have a solid set of skills behind you then you're nothing.
Half the benefit of doing the story or going up against some bosses was for the skills you could earn/capture.
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Hehehe, although it sometimes feels weird not being able to jump, especially if there is like a 1foot high fence in front of you and your mighty warrior cant jump over it (if I was a big bad boss, I'd just surround my castle with a 1ft high fence :D ), not being able to jump can be a good thing as it stops people bunny hopping all over the place like 1000 rabbits :D
 
Evilsod said:
You make it sound like UO somehow had a superior race of players. People logging in to chat means nothing, people can do that on any MMO if they don't want to use actual chat programs.

It was ridiculous the number of idiots and ignorant reviewers who would criticise GW because lvl20 was the max and you could reach it easily when reaching lvl20 meant the game was really only just beginning.
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So the game only starts once you get your character up to the maximum level?
So in other words "grind" as fast as you can because that game is nothing until you're maxed.
How does that make a fun game?

The logging in to UO and just chatting shows just how deep a game gets.
Many people described UO as a "violent and exciting chatroom".
Don't you see just how connected to the game a player has to feel to want to log into a game and not immediately start "powering through a dungeon"?
That they can just log into an ever-changing world and be "part of that world"?

Yes I think I am saying that UO had a better class of player.
It had it's fair share of "problem players".
But at the same time it had a feeling of real community.
There was also none of this "grinding" - people were in no real hurry to reach their 7x GM status.
I've played nearly every single MMORPG since - you can log into any game as a new player and nobody is chatting to you.
You haven't "ground" you way upto their level so they aren't interested in you.

There will be another game like UO one of these days, done well.
Just nothing on the horizon at the moment.
 
I wouldnt say UO had a "superior" race of player, I think its just a question of the kind of player. UO in 1997 came at a time when most internet gamers were older players, hell you had to be when playing an online game at a time when there was no £10 a month broadband etc...you had to pay by the second , on dialup. To play an MMO for a similar length of time per month as today could cost you £100 a month back then in phone bills (think my most expensive was something like £130 in a month, on 28k dialup with 450ms ping to the east coast US server :D ). As such it tended to only be older people who could afford to play something like an MMO, and as such their aims and goals in a gameworld tended to be different. Not superior, just different.
 
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