Hammond Critical - Top Gear Car Crash!

IainB · 24 Sep 2006 at 12:47

The_Dark_Side said:
how much control do you actually have in a jet car?
would an experienced jet car driver been able to recognise Hammonds situation earlier and if so would he have been able to "control" it?

'If' the tire has blown, then there isnt much you can do at that sort of speed.
At least at the Pod you have the walls either side to keep the cars within the track (though they didnt help when the fueller went vertical just as it crossed the finish line....not much you can do when your airborn!) - so I would assume apart from killing the jet, pulling the chutes and attempting to stear your at the mercy of where the car wants to go really

The_Dark_Side · 24 Sep 2006 at 12:50

IainB said:
'If' the tire has blown, then there isnt much you can do at that sort of speed.
At least at the Pod you have the walls either side to keep the cars within the track (though they didnt help when the fueller went vertical just as it crossed the finish line....not much you can do when your airborn!) - so I would assume apart from killing the jet, pulling the chutes and attempting to stear your at the mercy of where the car wants to go really

i was hoping you'd be about as you're the only one i can think of with anything resembling accurate knowledge on this subject.

in your opinion do you think it's possible that if it'd been an experienced driver, and not a tv presenter with little time in the car, that the accident would've been on a much smaller scale?

IainB · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:04

Im keeping my opinions on this one to myself, until all the facts are known, although the similarities between the current jet cars (Fireforce etc) and Top Fuel / Top Methanol are all the same really - if anything happens at those speeds (to quote Smax Smith) "you just tuck in and hope for the best" especially if it was something mechanical and not user error.
In answer to the question - I think the outcome would have been the same anyway, just not with the media coverage (and hysteria) its getting, though I want to see him back on Top Gear ASAP

James_N · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:19

I agree. Everyone says Hammond was silly for getting in and doing it himself, but if a tyre blows, it doesnt matter who is driving, the **** will still hit the fan (all imo)

The_Dark_Side · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:27

James_N said:
I agree. Everyone says Hammond was silly for getting in and doing it himself, but if a tyre blows, it doesnt matter who is driving, the **** will still hit the fan (all imo)

you may be right, but as i (and no doubt you yourself) have no experience or working knowledge of jet cars we can't necessarily say the same thing would've happened no matter who was driving.

think of your own car.there could be an instance where you lost traction and the back end stepped out but with your knowledge/experience you either got it back in line or, if it was unrecoverable, you minimised the damage...whereas joe public wouldn't know what to do in that situation and for the last few seconds the car would be an unguided missile.
it's perfectly possible the same could've been true with RH's awful accident.
perhaps if an experience jet car driver had been in the hot seat he/she would've handled things differently and the end result would've been less severe.

smids · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:41

The_Dark_Side said:
you may be right, but as i (and no doubt you yourself) have no experience or working knowledge of jet cars we can't necessarily say the same thing would've happened no matter who was driving.

think of your own car.there could be an instance where you lost traction and the back end stepped out but with your knowledge/experience you either got it back in line or, if it was unrecoverable, you minimised the damage...whereas joe public wouldn't know what to do in that situation and for the last few seconds the car would be an unguided missile.
it's perfectly possible the same could've been true with RH's awful accident.
perhaps if an experience jet car driver had been in the hot seat he/she would've handled things differently and the end result would've been less severe.

I have no knowledge on the subject really but I will add something - I doubt even an experienced driver of these jet cars would have done any better. If it was a tyre, then can you imagine how short a time you have to react. Think about normal driving, you first have response time e.g. if something jumps in front of the car - remember how far this can be even at 40mph (sometimes a good 10m). Now put this into something travelling 200mph (let's say). Now look at the distance travelled in the response time - I'm sure it would be a good 50-100m, and if this was a tyre blowout, you would already be off course and probably veering towards the grass, I very much doubt anything you did at this point would have any impact on the outcome.

The_Dark_Side · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:45

smids said:
I have no knowledge on the subject really but I will add something - I doubt even an experienced driver of these jet cars would have done any better. If it was a tyre, then can you imagine how short a time you have to react. Think about normal driving, you first have response time e.g. if something jumps in front of the car - remember how far this can be even at 40mph (sometimes a good 10m). Now put this into something travelling 200mph (let's say). Now look at the distance travelled in the response time - I'm sure it would be a good 50-100m, and if this was a tyre blowout, you would already be off course and probably veering towards the grass, I very much doubt anything you did at this point would have any impact on the outcome.

i'm neither for or against but i do realise that i can't confidently decide either way without knowing more about the subject.
if the driver has little or no imput then what exactly is an experienced jet car driver?
if there is so little to do then we are basically saying anyone can do it and that the professionals in this discipline have no skill/talent over and above any random member of the motoring public.

Richard Noble when asked about this accident showed the same concerns i have and said on record that there are very few experienced jet car drivers.

ZG002 · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:55

I supose experienced is showed in many different ways and handling of the car in "extreme" circumstances being only one.. not sure how much someone could excel at it.. we can't really comment as we have never driven one.. but from what ive read etc it really is a push go and hold on for life afair.. now im pretty sure there is much more to this... but have no idea what.

Psycho Ned · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:57

Andy Green the bloke who drove Thrust to the land speed record was a fighter pilot so i'd imagine the reason he was chosen was because of experience at high speeds and quick reactions.

I doubt that anyone could have avoided crash from a tyre blowout at that sort of speed though.

james.miller · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:58

in a jet car there's very little you can do to avoid a situation such as a blown tire. They literally are point it floor it and hope for the best. with a turning circle a bus would be ashamed off, and especially doing the wrong side of 250mph, you cant do *anything* but pull the shoots and cross your fingers. Brown trousers time, really.

As for having walls on a drag stip, welll.....that can be worse. if it were a chocie between cartwheeling down a feild at 280mph or hitting a brick wall at 280 id take my chances with the cartwheels, thanks.

The_Dark_Side said:
if there is so little to do then we are basically saying anyone can do it and that the professionals in this discipline have no skill/talent over and above any random member of the motoring public..

the feeling, the speed. g-force. why do peopel go fast? its a rush and doing 280 in a single seater rocket car has to feel bloody fantastic

smids · 24 Sep 2006 at 13:59

The_Dark_Side said:
i'm neither for or against but i do realise that i can't confidently decide either way without knowing more about the subject.
if the driver has little or no imput then what exactly is an experienced jet car driver?
if there is so little to do then we are basically saying anyone can do it and that the professionals in this discipline have no skill/talent over and above any random member of the motoring public.

Richard Noble when asked about this accident showed the same concerns i have and said on record that there are very few experienced jet car drivers.

...because this was mechanical failure apparently - something no-one can do anything about once it happens. If it was driver error however, then that is different. RH was a victim of mechanical failure (once again, unconfirmed) so there is such a thing as an experienced jet car driver (i.e. he will notice warning signs early on, though something like a tyre blow is not something you can forsee), conditions in which the car might become unstable etc.

james.miller · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:03

smids said:
...because this was mechanical failure apparently - something no-one can do anything about once it happens. If it was driver error however, then that is different. RH was a victim of mechanical failure (once again, unconfirmed) so there is such a thing as an experienced jet car driver (i.e. he will notice warning signs early on, though something like a tyre blow is not something you can forsee), conditions in which the car might become unstable etc.

even that you can't say for sure. how quickly did it get to 300mph? funny cars do it in under 5 seconds - can you honestly say you could get to 200mph, realise somthing isnt quite right then slow to a stop before something bad happens?

For all the drag racing i've seen, including jet cars and the late sammy miller's rocket car (awsome - shut the rocket off at 1/8th mile and still doing 300mph at the 1/4), i've rarely seen drivers shut the motor off half way down the strip becuase of a potential problem. there really isnt the time for it.

The_Dark_Side · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:04

Psycho Ned said:
Andy Green the bloke who drove Thrust to the land speed record was a fighter pilot so i'd imagine the reason he was chosen was because of experience at high speeds and quick reactions.

well i know the dashboard on these jet cars has about eleventy million switches on and there has to be a fair amount of technical knowledge required even just to drive.

The_Dark_Side · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:06

smids said:
...because this was mechanical failure apparently - something no-one can do anything about once it happens. If it was driver error however, then that is different. RH was a victim of mechanical failure (once again, unconfirmed) so there is such a thing as an experienced jet car driver (i.e. he will notice warning signs early on, though something like a tyre blow is not something you can forsee), conditions in which the car might become unstable etc.

if you blow a tyre on one of your cars front wheels then. depending how much knowledge the driver has there will either be a massive wreck, or nothing at all.
the mechanical failure simply presents the situation, it's what the driver does in response that determines what happens next.

The_Dark_Side · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:10

Psycho Ned said:
I doubt that anyone could have avoided crash from a tyre blowout at that sort of speed though.

once again though, as neither of us have driven one, know what's involved/how much control can be applied or how much skill is involved, you can neither doubt nor confirm that statement.
i'm holding my hands up and saying i simply cannot say if the same thing would've happened if an experienced driver had been in the car in Hammonds place.
yet almost everyone else in here (with pretty much the same gaping lack of knowledge on the subject) is POSITIVE this was unavoidable.
i fail to see how they can be so sure.

james.miller · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:16

because of reaction times. in a jet car your already doing 200+ in around 2 seconds. there's just no room for error and when somethign does go wrong, you cant do anythign about it.

smids · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:17

james.miller said:
even that you can't say for sure. how quickly did it get to 300mph? funny cars do it in under 5 seconds - can you honestly say you could get to 200mph, realise somthing isnt quite right then slow to a stop before something bad happens?

For all the drag racing i've seen, including jet cars and the late sammy miller's rocket car (awsome - shut the rocket off at 1/8th mile and still doing 300mph at the 1/4), i've rarely seen drivers shut the motor off half way down the strip becuase of a potential problem. there really isnt the time for it.

I've never been a fan of drag racing and not seen it. I was holding on to the slim hope that you could do more than just brown your pants and curl up and hopefully everything will be ok when/if you open your eyes

.

However, as I said above, in response 'the Dark side' - there isn't anything you have time to do unless of course your brain and synapses work faster than anyone else's.

Memphis · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:19

The_Dark_Side said:
i fail to see how they can be so sure.

Maybe they are happier thinking that it wasn't/couldn't have been Hammond's fault?

I agree with you though that absolutely no-one here can say for sure.

james.miller · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:23

what sammy miller said about his rocket car:

HOW TO DRIVE A ROCKET DRAGSTER

First of all, you gotta have a lot of guts�but we'll let Dr. Miller give you the blow-by-blow from a professional perspective.

"In preparation for a run, you check the nitrogen pressure in the air bottles. Then you put in just enough fuel for a quarter-mile run and for me an average run needed about 20-22 gallons of hydrogen peroxide in the fuel tank. Check the safety valves, then close the vent on the tank. You are pushed to the track just behind the starting line and aimed straight down the race track. Obviously, you can't be cranking the wheel all over in one of these cars, so you want the car straight as a string. Then you put about 50-lbs. PSI on the fuel tank, which allows you to preheat the silver screen catalyst in the rocket. I just tap the throttle a little and this gives off a little steam. Once the engine is cleaned from this pre-heating, you put about 700-pounds of pressure on top of the hydrogen peroxide fuel.

"As I sit in the car on the line, I always pushed my head back in the seat and fixed my eyes on a point in the horizon. Like it might be a tree at the end of the track or some object like that. I take a deep breath and then slam down on the throttle. Instantaneously, you're hit with about 12 to 13 Gs and go into severe tunnel vision-it's sort of like a gun scope. Naturally, you are getting pushed back in the seat all the way down the track. I actually make about 20-30 corrections in steering under those conditions. They are small in motion and that might not seem like much, but as fast as I'm going they have to be precise and done extremely quickly.

"After all, in a quarter of a second I'm going 60-mph, in .36 seconds I've gone a 100 feet. I made a run in Holland one time where I had gone 1.606 at 307-mph at the eighth mile point. You have no time to hesitate with these cars, it's gotta happen right now with the driver.

"I've heard it said that I've passed out after one of my three-second runs, but that's not so. My body does take a bit of beating. At times, I've gotten a bloody nose, bloody eyes, maybe an upset stomach, and all in all, I need about an hour to recuperate from the run."

obviously with funny cars and jet cars you have a little more time to think. but we're talking 5 seconds at the quater instead of 3.8 seconds. 'Doesnt make that much difference....

The_Dark_Side · 24 Sep 2006 at 14:29

Memphis said:
Maybe they are happier thinking that it wasn't/couldn't have been Hammond's fault?

i think this has something to do with it.
as i said i simply can't say yeay or neay.
if a tyre gives up the ghost then at those speeds it is going to have an almighty effect but perhaps there was something he could've done to reduce the severity of the accident.
for example did he shut the engine down as soon as he started to veer off course?

smids said:
However, as I said above, in response 'the Dark side' - there isn't anything you have time to do unless of course your brain and synapses work faster than anyone else's.

and why wouldn't they?
these jet cars are VERY similar to dragsters and an old drag saying states a race is usually won in the first few feet and not the last few.
pro drag racers typically have incredible reaction times.