Harmless 39 year old alcoholic woman tortured and beaten to death by girls aged 13 and 14.

[The Running Man]

are you serious? there was poverty when I was growing up you just don't see it from your posh suburban home.....

there was my school so don't talk about free education like it's a god given right in this country.
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/may/10/features11.g2


people are FAILED by the government just because you didn''t see it doesn't mean it's not there...........

I live and grew up in Oldham one of the poorest, most jobless holes in the UK. So don't preach to me about wealth and income.

The ones failing are these people and their parents. You can be the state all you want but personal responsibility is absolutely key.

Look around the world, there are many countries with lower monthly wages than you would receive in the uk on benefits yet 90% of the people in those countries don't go around robbing everyone else, attacking them or crying about it.

Look at Africa where they have real poverty, no water, infrastructure, housing etc. That would be understandable but no one lives like this in the UK. Its just a fact. Everything else is excuses.

 

[arknor]

I live and grew up in Oldham one of the poorest, most jobless holes in the UK. So don't preach to me about wealth and income.

The ones failing are these people and their parents. You can be the state all you want but personal responsibility is absolutely key.

Look around the world, there are many countries with lower monthly wages than you would receive in the uk on benefits yet 90% of the people in those countries don't go around robbing everyone else, attacking them or crying about it.

Look at Africa where they have real poverty, no water, infrastructure, housing etc. That would be understandable but no one lives like this in the UK. Its just a fact. Everything else is excuses.

okay bro you clearly didnt bother to read the 2 articles
keep living the dream

 

[The Running Man]

okay bro you clearly didnt bother to read the 2 articles
keep living the dream

Right and the parents of these unruly children, what was their input in this?

How come they didn't act like adults and make their children behave? People are quick to blame the teachers or the schools but really what they are doing is trying to take responsibility off their parents because.. well because I have no idea why.

My mum worked at a school, when children had bern told off, their parents came in trying to kick off woth the teachers. Yet its the schools fault.

Give me a break.

 

[arknor]

half my teachers were supply teachers, because the real ones were always disappearing.
read the article one of the teachers said they came from a school where they were planning to buy laptops for the children, to this school where they couldn't even afford new stools so the pupils didn't get crushed legs at the tables....

no running water in a science block.... head teacher constantly trying to shift the blame to parents and pupils when talking to ofsted.... yet can't even buy new stools or have running water in a science block.

they could afford security guards though and a prison style fence

 

[The Running Man]

half my teachers were supply teachers, because the real ones were always disappearing.
read the article one of the teachers said they came from a school where they were planning to buy laptops for the children, to this school where they couldn't even afford new stools so the pupils didn't get crushed legs at the tables....

no running water in a science block.... head teacher constantly trying to shift the blame to parents and pupils when talking to ofsted.... yet can't even buy new stools or have running water in a science block.

they could afford security guards though and a prison style fence

They probably needed the fence.

I dont think a temporary lack of water to one wing if the science block is a sufficient reason to act the fool all your life in school is it?

We didn't have laptops for the last 100 years in school it didn't stop anyone then from getting half decent grades either.

These are just excuses designed to deflect from bad behaviour.

Oh and the teachers probably went off with stress having to deal with a bunch if mis behaving morons every day with no support from the parents. No one signs up for that.

 

[pp111]

I think all these arguments of why some people are bad are kinda irrelevant. People are different, they have their own personal reasons why they turned to crime and I am not sure we should care. We should attempt to rehabilitate every criminal ( provided their crime wasn't absolutely horrific ), but if that fails then we instead turn to placing them in a s*** hole of a prison to beat sense in to their dull brains and threaten them with even worse if they ever come back again.

 

[Angilion]

I believe that it is accepted that over 75% of offenders are repeated offenders. [..]

After Norway changed their prison system from punishment to rehabilitation, recidivism dropped from 90% to 20% over a few decades. That's spectacularly unlikely to be a coincidence.

If the objective is to reduce recidivism, rehabilitation is better.
If the objective is to reduce crime, rehabilitation is better.
If the objective is to save money, rehabilitation is probably better because while it greatly increases the cost per criminal it great reduces the number of criminals.

Punishment is only definitely better if the objective is revenge.

Have to say I'm amazed it costs so much to keep someone in a concrete box. We should let Aldi run our prisons

Oh yeah, that's something else a punitive system is better for - businesses profiting from running jails. But that makes crime worse and is usually more expensive for the country as it's the country that's paying the businesses. Employing middlemen increases costs. So I'd argue that it's not better overall.

A punitive system might "work" if it's run as the enslavement or killing of everyone who is convicted, especially if they don't really have to be guilty (which cuts costs on investigations and trials). Otherwise, no.

 

[The Running Man]

I think all these arguments of why some people are bad are kinda irrelevant. People are different, they have their own personal reasons why they turned to crime and I am not sure we should care. We should attempt to rehabilitate every criminal ( provided their crime wasn't absolutely horrific ), but if that fails then we instead turn to placing them in a s*** hole of a prison to beat sense in to their dull brains and threaten them with even worse if they ever come back again.

We should offer rehabilitated. Some people don't want it and won't respond to it. Best to not waste resources in those.

 

[The Running Man]

After Norway changed their prison system from punishment to rehabilitation, recidivism dropped from 90% to 20% over a few decades. That's spectacularly unlikely to be a coincidence.

If the objective is to reduce recidivism, rehabilitation is better.
If the objective is to reduce crime, rehabilitation is better.
If the objective is to save money, rehabilitation is probably better because while it greatly increases the cost per criminal it great reduces the number of criminals.

Punishment is only definitely better if the objective is revenge.




Oh yeah, that's something else a punitive system is better for - businesses profiting from running jails. But that makes crime worse and is usually more expensive for the country as it's the country that's paying the businesses. Employing middlemen increases costs. So I'd argue that it's not better overall.

A punitive system might "work" if it's run as the enslavement or killing of everyone who is convicted, especially if they don't really have to be guilty (which cuts costs on investigations and trials). Otherwise, no.

If someone can be "rehabilitated " they can also understand why they are being punished too.

If they can't understand why someone would need to be punished for committing a crime, have they really been rehabilitated?

Also note Anders Brevik is due to be eligible for parole this year, just 10 years in prison for mass murder. What a great system, for criminals.

 

[Angilion]

If someone can be "rehabilitated " they can also understand why they are being punished too.

If they can't understand why someone would need to be punished for committing a crime, have they really been rehabilitated?

Also note Anders Brevik is due to be eligible for parole this year, just 10 years in prison for mass murder. What a great system, for criminals.

I suggest you look at these two things:

1) A comparison of crime rates now between Norway and the UK. Or almost anywhere else.
2) The change in crime rates in Norway before ~1970 and after ~1970. ~1970 was when Norway changed its criminal law system from punishment to rehabilitation, so you can see the effect.

Then tell me why doing the opposite is a good idea. I want to know what your argument is. Not just a decree that punishment works and rehabilitation doesn't despite all the evidence that the opposite is true. An argument. Preferably with some evidence. Has anywhere tried doing what you want done? If so, what was the result?

 

[The Running Man]

I suggest you look at these two things:

1) A comparison of crime rates now between Norway and the UK. Or almost anywhere else.
2) The change in crime rates in Norway before ~1970 and after ~1970. ~1970 was when Norway changed its criminal law system from punishment to rehabilitation, so you can see the effect.

Then tell me why doing the opposite is a good idea. I want to know what your argument is. Not just a decree that punishment works and rehabilitation doesn't despite all the evidence that the opposite is true. An argument. Preferably with some evidence. Has anywhere tried doing what you want done? If so, what was the result?

Okay I'll give you a factoid.

Brandon Bernard took part in 2 murders.

He got sentenced to death, and died for his crimes. He will never commit murder again.

Myra Hindley convicted of hideous crimes never left jail, nor will she offend again. 100% successful prosecution and sentencing.

In this instance there was zero chance of the public being damaged by either party.

In the example you gave one in five will reoffend and hurt the public again. I know which makes me feel safer for myself and my family.

 

[pp111]

We should offer rehabilitated. Some people don't want it and won't respond to it. Best to not waste resources in those.

You know I find that the Government falls down on this sort of stuff all the time. It's like benefits. They always seem to let the scroungers claim the most and the deserving people the least. Governments are great at sweeping policies but fail miserably at the fine detail. You can not have one-rule-suits-all. You need to assess every criminal and I have no doubt that the government would get it hopelessly wrong. But you are right, I am pretty sure that the average person could actually come up with some sort of assessment for these criminals.

 

[pp111]

I suggest you look at these two things:

1) A comparison of crime rates now between Norway and the UK. Or almost anywhere else.
2) The change in crime rates in Norway before ~1970 and after ~1970. ~1970 was when Norway changed its criminal law system from punishment to rehabilitation, so you can see the effect.

Then tell me why doing the opposite is a good idea. I want to know what your argument is. Not just a decree that punishment works and rehabilitation doesn't despite all the evidence that the opposite is true. An argument. Preferably with some evidence. Has anywhere tried doing what you want done? If so, what was the result?

I don' t think you can make up one rule to suit all prisoners. And I think that people are most infuriated by the prisoners who do not respond to rehabilitation and are somehow allowed to persistently commit crimes without the "system" realising that rehabilitation is not achieving results in this particular case.

 

[hurfdurf]

So not REAL life then
Only in the UK.

Ah yes, only in the UK do we not have full life sentences.... unlike... most other developed nations who also understand very basic notions of criminal justice.

 

[deuse]

Ah yes, only in the UK do we not have full life sentences.... unlike... most other developed nations who also understand very basic notions of criminal justice.

Yes the UK justice system is criminal.
They don't care about the victim.

 

[The Running Man]

Yes the UK justice system is criminal.
They don't care about the victim.

Or future victims.

 

[Angilion]

I don' t think you can make up one rule to suit all prisoners.

The only people arguing for one rule for all prisoners are the worst end of those advocating a purely punitive system. Certainly not those advocating a rehabilitative system, which by its very nature has to be individually tailored.

And I think that people are most infuriated by the prisoners who do not respond to rehabilitation and are somehow allowed to persistently commit crimes without the "system" realising that rehabilitation is not achieving results in this particular case.

Which happens where?

The same person repeatedly committing crimes happens far less often in a system focused on rehabilitation than it does in a system focused on punishment. So anyone who really wants to reduce recidivism should be in favour of rehabilitation or in favour of execution for most or all crimes (especially shoplifting and burglary).

 

[Angilion]

Okay I'll give you a factoid.

Brandon Bernard took part in 2 murders.

He got sentenced to death, and died for his crimes. He will never commit murder again.

Myra Hindley convicted of hideous crimes never left jail, nor will she offend again. 100% successful prosecution and sentencing.

In this instance there was zero chance of the public being damaged by either party.

In the example you gave one in five will reoffend and hurt the public again. I know which makes me feel safer for myself and my family.

So you have nothing apart from knee-jerk vengeance by proxy that puts everyone at more risk, rationalising it by using the worst cases as a basis for the whole criminal justive system. You're willing, even eager, to increase crime of all kinds as long as you can get a fake impression of safety from vengeance.

That's not a compelling argument. Nor is it a fact.

If you're willing to take it far enough, with mass executions for all sorts of crimes, you'd have a better point. That might be more effective at increasing safety than rehabilition. Maybe. It would at least be a consistent argument. Are you willing to take it that far?

As I said before, there are a few people who can't be rehabilitated and would need to be kept in a secure mental hospital prison. But they shouldn't be the basis for the whole system.

Do you think that consecutive Norwegian authorities have been conducting a perfect conspiracy of lying for decades, with all the crime figures being completely fake? If so, how do you think they're managing to do it without being discovered? If not, why are you opposed to such an effective way to reduce crime?

 

[Resident]

So you have nothing apart from knee-jerk vengeance by proxy that puts everyone at more risk, rationalising it by using the worst cases as a basis for the whole criminal justive system. You're willing, even eager, to increase crime of all kinds as long as you can get a fake impression of safety from vengeance.

That's not a compelling argument. Nor is it a fact.

If you're willing to take it far enough, with mass executions for all sorts of crimes, you'd have a better point. That might be more effective at increasing safety than rehabilition. Maybe. It would at least be a consistent argument. Are you willing to take it that far?

As I said before, there are a few people who can't be rehabilitated and would need to be kept in a secure mental hospital prison. But they shouldn't be the basis for the whole system.

Do you think that consecutive Norwegian authorities have been conducting a perfect conspiracy of lying for decades, with all the crime figures being completely fake? If so, how do you think they're managing to do it without being discovered? If not, why are you opposed to such an effective way to reduce crime?

ALL Governments "massage" official figures, mostly in favour of showing their plans/intiatives etc aren't abject failures. You're incredibly naive if you think any Government tells the whole truth.

The UK's crime stats are massively skewed with a fair few reported crimes going unrecorded as such. It used to be that you reported a crime and you were given a CRIME reference number. This was recorded on the PNC (and therefore official figures). Now you're given an "incident reference" and only get a crime reference if you push for one.

 

[Angilion]

ALL Governments "massage" official figures, mostly in favour of showing their plans/intiatives etc aren't abject failures. You're incredibly naive if you think any Government tells the whole truth. [..]

I would be if I said that, which of course I didn't.

Do you really believe that successive Norwegian governments have successfully conducted a completely secret conspiracy of extreme lying about crime, many times more extreme than the manipulation of the UK crime figures you refer to? With crimes skyrocketing while the figures show them plummeting and nobody noticed that extreme degree of deception? Have you seen the Norwegian crime figures?