Has anyone elses salary been affected by the gender pay gap yet?

[Pottsey]

You previously explained that that is how it worked for government jobs etc.. and then went into detail on that.

I think the jobs are different and that someone getting up early and working outdoors in all weathers, doing physically demanding work would probably be doing a less desirable job than someone putting the plates out. Without wanting to go back to the whole "thats how it works/govt jobs thing" I don't see why they should, in principle, be compared in the first place.

Well I do not fully agree with it. For Physical demands dinner ladies are classed as

“Walking, bending, stretching, lifting, moving and handling furniture and equipment form a regular part of the job”

Which is pretty much the same as a binmen. Loading a bin onto a lift thingy is seen as the same as lifting a table.

 

[Nitefly]

This is pretty interesting. I’m sure it’s been linked to already.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...nderstandingthegenderpaygapintheuk/2018-01-17

I’m going to be selectively quoting but:

At younger ages (16 to 21) men’s jobs are split almost equally between full-time (51.2%) and part-time (49.8%) but, between the ages of 30 to 39 (91.3%) and 40 to 49 (91.3%) more than 90% of men’s jobs are full-time. Women however, are less likely to work full-time, with only 61.1% and 57.6% of women’s jobs being full-time for ages 30 to 39 and 40 to 49 respectively.

Across the younger age groups (16 to 21, 22 to 29 and 30 to 39), the gender pay gap is positive but relatively small for full-time workers (never greater than 2.4%). For part-time workers of the same age, the gap is negative.

It’s that ^^^ that makes me get a little... irritated, by things like this...

https://vimeo.com/244068985

 

[Scrutinize]

You previously explained that that is how it worked for government jobs etc.. and then went into detail on that.

I think the jobs are different and that someone getting up early and working outdoors in all weathers, doing physically demanding work would probably be doing a less desirable job than someone putting the plates out. Without wanting to go back to the whole "thats how it works/govt jobs thing" I don't see why they should, in principle, be compared in the first place.

But you thinking them different doesn't make them different in terms of job skill evaluation.

The evaluation system is actually very fair.

When you have a spectrum of low skilled workers and ultimately low skilled roles; task based role definition rather than environment based is the correct approach.

 

[Jokester]

That Cathy Newman interview with Peterson is one of the cringiest things I've seen in a long time - "but it's not fair!".

 

[Scrutinize]

That Cathy Newman interview with Peterson is one of the cringiest things I've seen in a long time - "but it's not fair!".

She's absolutely right, it's not fair. The work place in the commercial world is not fair and is often highly dispassionate and devoid of emotional attachment. The sacrifices made to achieve success are not fair nor reasonable. Success at the cost of family, integrity, health, social life and wellbeing is not fair.

A system of entitlement is fair and reasonable but not sustainable in a commercial market.

The NHS, notably in commissioning (CCG formerly PCT) and Trust management is a good example of a structured environment favouring emotion and entitlement with for one aspect example where there is auto incremental financial and role progression on years served. However, this system regardless of gender employed cannot survive in the commercial marketplace.

 

[dowie]

But you thinking them different doesn't make them different in terms of job skill evaluation.

The evaluation system is actually very fair.

When you have a spectrum of low skilled workers and ultimately low skilled roles; task based role definition rather than environment based is the correct approach.

Well it isn't really about me thinking they're different, I mean they are literally different jobs and I don't see the need for the evaluation or comparison in the first place - if it is harder to recruit/retain people for role X or vice versa then you get a more objective answer re: how much you ought to pay people.

A system of entitlement is fair and reasonable but not sustainable in a commercial market.

The NHS, notably in commissioning (CCG formerly PCT) and Trust management is a good example of a structured environment favouring emotion and entitlement with for one aspect example where there is auto incremental financial and role progression on years served. However, this system regardless of gender employed cannot survive in the commercial marketplace.

How do you mean "favouring emotion and entitlement"?

I don't think people should just progress in terms of pay purely based on time served, though time served ought to lead to people increasing their skillset at a particular role and ought to (in general) lead to progression etc..

 

[Scrutinize]

Well it isn't really about me thinking they're different, I mean they are literally different jobs and I don't see the need for the evaluation or comparison in the first place - if it is harder to recruit/retain people for role X or vice versa then you get a more objective answer re: how much you ought to pay people.

Essentially both are minimum/living wage jobs which are salary inflated due to public sector. In the private sector that is how it can be structured or on a daily/hourly contract rate. The public sector can't define a role like that because of legislative, policy and union inhibitors. Therefore, jobs are scaled with commonality of task/function but not role specific, unless the role has qualification entry requirements.

In many ways the job and job description is irrelevant since a minimum/living wage job pays the same.

However they have to follow recruitment and equality policies/legislation so it's easier to define non descriptive tasks and then put everyone in that role in that pay/job scale/tier.

The actual real financial value of the job vs actual inflated pay has evolved over years of public sector restructuring, budget growth and cuts, legislation and policy changes, committee changes and council ruling party changes and union involvement.

How do you mean "favouring emotion and entitlement"?

It's a function of the NHS incremental pay scale systems (separate to annual inflation increases) where progression is automatic annually to reflect theoretical development in role due to experience even if you haven't.

Re the 'emotion' aspect, it's not a debate to have on here.

 

[Sheff]

It's a function of the NHS incremental pay scale systems (separate to annual inflation increases) where progression is automatic annually to reflect theoretical development in role due to experience even if you haven't.

Re the 'emotion' aspect, it's not a debate to have on here.

That's not entirely true, upper points on bands require demonstration of professional development in order to move to the next point. Senior managers advancement on the spine points can be reversed as they are performance related.

Many NHS organisations have a policy of making advancement subject to review at all points in the band (granted you generally have to be doing quite poorly to fail to advance).

Part of the difficulty in the public sector is retention because there isn't anywhere to progress to; most departments are facing budget cuts every year meaning that you can't even rely on dead man's boots.

A lot of equivalent private sector jobs pay more in healthcare so increasing pay using pay points, and the sense of progression within your band help to reduce retention issues.

 

[Angilion]

So either way dinner ladies should be on par with bin men.

One job is done indoors at reasonably healthy and sociable hours in a relatively safe environment.

The other is done outdoors in all weathers at unhealthy and unsociable hours in a more dangerous environment with a much higher risk of traffic accidents and a constant risk of exposure to substances hazardous to health.

So no, the pay shouldn't be on a par because the work isn't. It might require the same level of skill, but it isn't the same level of work.

 

[FoxEye]

One job is done indoors at reasonably healthy and sociable hours in a relatively safe environment.

The other is done outdoors in all weathers at unhealthy and unsociable hours in a more dangerous environment with a much higher risk of traffic accidents and a constant risk of exposure to substances hazardous to health.

So no, the pay shouldn't be on a par because the work isn't. It might require the same level of skill, but it isn't the same level of work.

Also the bin men on the higher levels (£30k+, 40k+ with overtime) were the ones operating dangerous machinery and driving the HGVs. The tribunals didn't seem to factor this in when they decided long-serving dinner ladies in Birmingham were also worth £30k+. Heck that's a good deal more than I make in IT

Didn't seem to care about differences in the working environment either, as you say.

This isn't about equal pay for equal work, and nobody I've discussed this with thinks it is. It's about finding any justification to pay a select group of women the wages they desire, no matter what job they choose to do. And using social media outrage to push that agenda. And obviously these particular women aren't going to choose to do the dirty or dangerous jobs. Why should they when you can make £30k as a dinner lady? Nice cushy number that.

Frankly that's something that other women in genuinely skilled roles should find insulting also, if they also earn £30k.

Bin men do a job that most of us would hate. They get paid a bit more than normal because of that. Dinner ladies do a job so simple and inoffensive literally anyone could do it without discomfort. I'm more sympathetic towards carers, because they also do a horrible, horrible job that I would absolutely hate (and be perfectly incapable of doing). Dinner ladies tho... if that isn't a low- wage job I don't know what is.

 

[chroniclard]

Bigging up bin men far too much. It's basic manual labour.

 

[Roar87]

Bigging up bin men far too much. It's basic manual labour.

It's working outside all year round with filthy garbage, wheelie bins are also pretty heavy when they're full so it's way more strenuous. It's not skilled work but it's way more taxing and less desirable than working inside cleaning plates up.

 

[Pottsey]

It's working outside all year round with filthy garbage, wheelie bins are also pretty heavy when they're full so it's way more strenuous. It's not skilled work but it's way more taxing and less desirable than working inside cleaning plates up.

But they do not just clean plates they have to clean wee, sick, garbage up as well. Putting a bin on a lift on a garbage truck is far easier work then lifting tables, moving stacks of chairs and tables is more strenuous then a full bin and cleaning sick up is far more filthy then moving a garbage bin. Both jobs are basic manual labour. They also have to work outside all year around just like the binmen.

 

[Hades]

But they do not just clean plates they have to clean wee, sick, garbage up as well. Putting a bin on a lift on a garbage truck is far easier work then lifting tables, moving stacks of chairs which is more strenuous then a full bin and cleaning sick up is far more filthy then moving a garbage bin. Both jobs are basic manual labour. They also have to work outside all year around just like the binmen.

Hang on, so 20 mins (or whatever) of stacking chairs and tables is more stressful than dragging heavy bins around for a few hours?

Occasionally having to go outside to a bin is "working outside"? Even my office job calls for me to go outside occasionally so I guess I work outside in all weathers, and freezing winter snow too? Best I add that to my CV then.

Also didn't realise kids were constantly weeing and being sick everywhere now. What are they feeding them to have such a problem all the time?

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

That Cathy Newman interview with Peterson is one of the cringiest things I've seen in a long time - "but it's not fair!".

He totally destroys her, I actually feel bad untill I realise she is part of the problem.

 

[Roar87]

But they do not just clean plates they have to clean wee, sick, garbage up as well. Putting a bin on a lift on a garbage truck is far easier work then lifting tables, moving stacks of chairs and tables is more strenuous then a full bin and cleaning sick up is far more filthy then moving a garbage bin. Both jobs are basic manual labour. They also have to work outside all year around just like the binmen.

You're seemingly making things up now to suit your argument. For a start you need to move the bin to the lift, we haven't invented robotic bin vans yet. Where I live people leave the bins down a side alley, so they have to be dragged from there to the bin van, they have to do that hundreds of times, and the bins must weigh between 10 and 30kg. During my time at school I never witnessed dinner ladies cleaning toilets, funnily enough the cleaners did that, I also don't even recall anyone being sick and the dinner ladies needing to clean it up, though I concede it could've happened once or twice without me knowing. They do not work outside doing a demanding manual job in all weather.

 

[Pottsey]

“Occasionally having to go outside to a bin is "working outside"? Even my office job calls for me to go outside occasionally so I guess I work outside in all weathers, and freezing winter snow too? Best I add that to my CV then.

They don’t just occasionally go outside to empty a bin; they have long periods outside at a time in all-weather conditions even snow. Not as long as a binmen but enough to be counted as working outside. 2 hour job as a dinner lady is very similar to 2 hour job as a bin men.

Moving enough tables and chairs in a short timeframe is hard work. A stack of chairs is very similar if not more weight than a bin. Have you ever tried moving a large hull’s worth of chairs and tables within a set timeframe? Is basic manual labour just like moving a bin onto a lift.

The sheer volume of kids means there is a constant stream of different children with problems. Children spit, wee and be sick. Binmen don’t have to put up with lots of verbal abuse and spit.

“Also didn't realise kids were constantly weeing and being sick everywhere now. What are they feeding them to have such a problem all the time?”

The sheer volume of kids means there is a constant stream of different children with problems

 

[Ayahuasca]

This debate on bin men vs dinner ladies is one of the strangest I’ve seen on GD.

 

[Hades]

They don’t just occasionally go outside to empty a bin; they have long periods outside at a time in all-weather conditions even snow. Not as long as a binmen but enough to be counted as working outside. 2 hour job as a dinner lady is very similar to 2 hour job as a bin men.

Moving enough tables and chairs in a short timeframe is hard work. A stack of chairs is very similar if not more weight than a bin. Have you ever tried moving a large hull’s worth of chairs and tables within a set timeframe? Is basic manual labour just like moving a bin onto a lift.

The sheer volume of kids means there is a constant stream of different children with problems. Children spit, wee and be sick. Binmen don’t have to put up with lots of verbal abuse and spit.



The sheer volume of kids means there is a constant stream of different children with problems

Genuine question as I'm clearly not able to picture it. But what do dinner ladies need to do outside for prolonged periods?

 

[Pottsey]

You're seemingly making things up now to suit your argument. For a start you need to move the bin to the lift, we haven't invented robotic bin vans yet. Where I live people leave the bins down a side alley, so they have to be dragged from there to the bin van, they have to do that hundreds of times, and the bins must weigh between 10 and 30kg. During my time at school I never witnessed dinner ladies cleaning toilets, funnily enough the cleaners did that, I also don't even recall anyone being sick and the dinner ladies needing to clean it up, though I concede it could've happened once or twice without me knowing. They do not work outside doing a demanding manual job in all weather.

Well I have been on 3 school sites this week and from what I have seen here you and others are very out of touch. What about the 100's of tables and chairs that need dragging to a store room?

You don’t have cleaner’s onsite all day at schools. Those come in before the start of the day and at end of day after everyone’s left. When someone spits or is sick you cannot leave it for the cleaners to do in 4+ hours time. It has to be cleaned up right away.

How much do you think tables and stacks of chairs weigh? You and other seem to be under the impression the job starts and ends in the dinner hall. What about the 1+ hour outside after the dinner hall in all weather conditions?

EDIT: Look at the dinner lady job. "“Walking, bending, stretching, lifting, moving and handling furniture and equipment form a regular part of the job” That's not my words that's the job evolution. Replace furniture with bins and its the same as a bin man.