Has anyone tried professional career advice?

[Martynt74]

This is the main thing that attracts me to getting a professional opinion. I appreciate that another person wants to help but that same person is going to have illusions, biases and knowledge gaps. When you are really stuck down there with no progression prospects at all it is really bad. The last thing you want to hear are the same things that led you to where that place is even if they are well meant.

The thing is that a professional giving advice is likely to come with all those things. They're not going to know every area of every market. Which is why the advice on here is absolutely invaluable, as mentioned above, you have people from all over the country (and even globally), who come from a wide range of backgrounds and professions.

It's about as wide as net as you could hope to cover. Your last post is also confusing as you're saying you're capable of thinking for yourself and developing your own ideas yet seem to want to pay for advice. Surely the benefit of mentoring is someone who has a huge amount of experience has a greater insight/past to draw suggestions from.

You mention Customer Service, what sector is that in? In some posts it sounded like you were doing 1st line IT type work, helping people with software/systems, but then in another it sounds like you're in a call centre which the likes of Vodafone might use. Some better detail could be helpful.

What's your success rate from applications to interviews? Do you use recruiters or always apply direct? Also what feedback do you get when being turned down for jobs? Also where in the country are you?

 

[Dolph]

Thank you Dolph, that's nice of you to offer. I appreciate what you're saying about mentoring. In the same vein it's a little suspicious to me. I'm perfectly capable of thinking for myself and developing my own ideas. However my experience with mentoring is quite limited and they don't usually offer programs or pathways as such if you work in customer service. All the best in your new role.

With respect, I'm going to be a little bit blunt here, your reply to Hangtime and your response to me contradict each other in my eyes. The fact that you are applying for so many jobs and getting nowhere despite having good paper qualifications (you're better qualified on paper than I am, and I'm only 43, so it's not a huge age/opportunity gap) tells me that something is wrong with what you are doing. Whether it's your CV that is stopping you getting past the initial applicant sift, or something in your interview technique that is dropping you down the list, there is definitely something.

In my experience, the most likely cause of this is not understanding what recruiters and recruiting managers are looking for. It can be as simple as one 'red flag' sentence in your CV (or using comic sans as the font, it's a trope for a reason). It's not a failure, there is, in essence, a hidden language when it comes to a lot of the employment processes, and it's a game you have to play, and to do that, you have to be shown the rules.

That your employer may not offer a formal pathway to those in customer service shouldn't be a barrier or a blocker to reaching out to people within your organisation, and a mentor doesn't have to be from your organisation. Mentoring isn't about company processes or politics, it's much more about the soft skills and guidance, a sounding board and so on.

 

[dlockers]

Unfortunately the OPs post just reads of textbook learned helplessness. Move along gents.

 

[Magiccarpet]

The thing is that a professional giving advice is likely to come with all those things. They're not going to know every area of every market. Which is why the advice on here is absolutely invaluable, as mentioned above, you have people from all over the country (and even globally), who come from a wide range of backgrounds and professions.

How do you know this - have you tried professional advice? What evidence are you working from. People already make a lot of (not very nice) assumptions about me because of my job.

You mention Customer Service, what sector is that in? In some posts it sounded like you were doing 1st line IT type work, helping people with software/systems, but then in another it sounds like you're in a call centre which the likes of Vodafone might use. Some better detail could be helpful.

What's your success rate from applications to interviews? Do you use recruiters or always apply direct? Also what feedback do you get when being turned down for jobs? Also where in the country are you?

Good guess, it's similar to telecoms. What more detail do you want, however? It's a coordinator position in a customer service department. You log problems, get chased, a lot of "I demand to speak to your supervisor" kind of calls when you've done your job, that kind of work. It's £9.30 an hour, you can't get a skilled position through it. I tried asking the technical team about vacancies a while back and they laughed and said "But who's going to train you up then?" and that was the end of that conversation.
My success rate is about 0.5-1% for interviews, much lower for offers. I go for a wide selection of recruiters and direct employers, and through every major job website. The feedback people give is usually very generic and sketchy, random stuff like "didn't make much eye contact", when I did, or very aggressive, like the one time they literally shouted at me over the phone "What gave you the impression we were offering you a second interview!" when they offered and later withdrew a second interview offer. Getting honest help with my CV is another really major issue. There are free services but they don't help much and you don't qualify if you have a job. Online forums have never generated feedback. Basically no help.

With respect, I'm going to be a little bit blunt here, your reply to Hangtime and your response to me contradict each other in my eyes. The fact that you are applying for so many jobs and getting nowhere despite having good paper qualifications (you're better qualified on paper than I am, and I'm only 43, so it's not a huge age/opportunity gap) tells me that something is wrong with what you are doing. Whether it's your CV that is stopping you getting past the initial applicant sift, or something in your interview technique that is dropping you down the list, there is definitely something.

Your direct approach is appreciated. Still, you are also making assumptions. How do you know for sure, that there is "definitely something"? If you constantly ask me questions, you're eventually going to uncover some shortcomings in my ways. Are you going to cherry-pick those and put the blame on them? I'm not flawless. You are working off intuition, not evidence. And just because I'm paid so little and have such a crappy job, it doesn't mean that I'm stupid, lazy and evil. It's rubbish being written off all the time.
Anyway thanks very much for your input but I would really like to steer this conversation towards what experiences people have had with professional advice and how it has guided them if possible please. Thank you

 

[Martynt74]

It was an assumption based on the logic that no single person is going to be capable of knowing absolutely everything possible. They'll make assumptions based on what they see no differently to anyone on here or any hiring managers.

My main reason for asking what to gather whether you worked in an IT based CS role, or something more generic call centre wise. Just to try and get a feel for experience.

If you post your CV on here, i suspect you'll get good honest advice. You many not like it, but i would expect it would always be backed up with evidence rather than just generic comments.

As the above posts will show, people on here are honest and open in their feedback. It's rarely sugar coated to tell you what you want to hear but it comes from a huge amount of experience. Particularly if you want to target IT roles as that's where many people have experience. It does feel like there has to be some issues with your CV, or something you're not mentioning if your success rate is so low for interviews, especially if you're qualified for the role.

You can search back for similar threads if you want examples of CV feedback threads, but they're usually well responded to.

 

[Dolph]

Your direct approach is appreciated. Still, you are also making assumptions. How do you know for sure, that there is "definitely something"? If you constantly ask me questions, you're eventually going to uncover some shortcomings in my ways. Are you going to cherry-pick those and put the blame on them? I'm not flawless. You are working off intuition, not evidence. And just because I'm paid so little and have such a crappy job, it doesn't mean that I'm stupid, lazy and evil. It's rubbish being written off all the time.
Anyway thanks very much for your input but I would really like to steer this conversation towards what experiences people have had with professional advice and how it has guided them if possible please. Thank you

You may not appreciate my directness a second time, but here goes.

I'm not making assumptions about you, I'm making observations based on the information you are providing. I'm not assuming there is something wrong in the way you are applying for roles, the data speaks for itself. You also appear to have a significant chip on your shoulder, and that is noticed. I did not, and would not, ever consider you stupid, lazy, evil or anything of the sort based on the job you do, I'm sorry you feel that way, but you cannot let it colour your interactions, because people will notice.

I am someone who has literally both taken the journey you want to take, and supported and developed other people through that exact journey, in the telecoms sector. I have made mistakes myself, and seen many more. I would not have been able to make the journey without advice, help and guidance from others, especially when I've ended up seemingly stuck in a rut.

To return to your question, getting advice, professional or otherwise, is only of benefit if you approach it openly and with willingness (both consciously and subconsciously) to act on it. Paying for advice doesn't change whether that is something you are ready to do.

This may have felt like some kind of character assassination, it really isn't intended that way, needing guidance, a new approach or a review of where you are is never an indication of failure, instead the ability to self reflect in a non judgemental way is a key driver to continued personal growth.

 

[OspreyO]

I am stuck in entry level customer service. After trying variety of career ideas, all the typical advice, researching and educating myself, going to uni, studying courses on my own, now I am at middle age and no matter what I simply cannot progress beyond entry level customer service.

These jobs are well below my ability and it's so embarrassing but no one is giving me a break. So rather than trying to do something about it and failing yet again would professional (paid) career coaching work. I'm 39 and now have enough money to afford such a venture, and would be interested to hear educated and informed opinions on it. And what my budget should be.

Many thanks

The lack of mentoring is often cultural in an organization. Some people like to mentor some don't. You won't change organizational culture. You'd have to move to do that.

You can't get out of a rut by just doing the same stuff over and over. Even if you the best support person ever, they will never see you as anything other than support. That has fixed ceiling in terms of progression.

 

[OspreyO]

If you're job applications are not successful you are doing it wrong. Simple as.

I've moved out of support roles, into development and business roles. But its so easy to get trapped in them. Its also easy to fall back into them.

 

[HangTime]

@Edrof I believe is/was a professional career advisor or CV writer and may be able to hawk you his waresoffer you some advice.

 

[OspreyO]

The only issue with career advisors is their information might be too generic for IT. Not that it wouldn't be useful. Just the the OP might struggle to apply it.

 

[Magiccarpet]

I'm not making assumptions about you, I'm making observations based on the information you are providing. I'm not assuming there is something wrong in the way you are applying for roles, the data speaks for itself. You also appear to have a significant chip on your shoulder, and that is noticed.

How does the data speak for itself? What data are you considering? These are just my words. You could have a spreadsheet of every job application I've made in the last 2 years, that would be data. Instead you have applied judgement without receiving evidence. After a day of talking you think you know me. No one has ever said I have a bad attitude or a chip on my shoulder. My reviews are usually excellent. One of my fortes is making anybody laugh. Forums and e-mail are good ways at addressing simple problems, especially if they involve something electronic, but not so suitable for complex human problems. How do you know my research methods aren't flawed? Or I'm using the wrong websites? You simply don't know, neither do I.

I am someone who has literally both taken the journey you want to take, and supported and developed other people through that exact journey, in the telecoms sector. I have made mistakes myself, and seen many more. I would not have been able to make the journey without advice, help and guidance from others, especially when I've ended up seemingly stuck in a rut.

To return to your question, getting advice, professional or otherwise, is only of benefit if you approach it openly and with willingness (both consciously and subconsciously) to act on it. Paying for advice doesn't change whether that is something you are ready to do.

This may have felt like some kind of character assassination, it really isn't intended that way, needing guidance, a new approach or a review of where you are is never an indication of failure, instead the ability to self reflect in a non judgemental way is a key driver to continued personal growth.

Seeing as I want to pay a lot of money for it. Isn't that a good indication of how willing someone is? And I'm not bothered at all by your words, if anything you're not being direct enough. One thing we're in agreement is that you got help. People don't start at the bottom, work their way up and earn the promotion, they get helped up. This has been a universal feature I've observed in the workplace. That might be too direct for anybody to be fair.

Anyway can we please talk about professional careers advice at some point.

If you're job applications are not successful you are doing it wrong. Simple as.

Darn'd straight *gulps lager*

 

[Kenai]

Unfortunately the OPs post just reads of textbook learned helplessness. Move along gents.

This, just smacks of wanting validation for the idea of throwing money at careers advice so when it doesn't work (which it won't, with the attitude on display in this thread) it can be dismissed as someone else's failing.

 

[Josh]

I'm starting to see why you've not been accepted into a lot of roles.

 

[Magiccarpet]

This, just smacks of wanting validation for the idea of throwing money at careers advice so when it doesn't work (which it won't, with the attitude on display in this thread) it can be dismissed as someone else's failing.

How do you know if you've never tried? If you want to drive, you take lessons. If you want a degree, you attend lectures. If you want a more efficient wireless network in your small business and don't understand much about network infrastructure, you approach a trained and experienced consultant. Why is a complex task such as building a career direction supposed to be a DIY task left up to the individual?

My intention is to gain perspective and understanding into my options and explore the reasons for my failures, not to abandon the onus on someone else. If that was the plan you could simply blame the economy, my parents, society in general, the list is endless! But there is a lot of work and opportunity out there, it's simply getting to it. I've not been able to lie back and fall into a career path without thinking like many people do. Maybe that's a blessing in disguise, because it's forced me to think harder about my choices.

I'm starting to see why you've not been accepted into a lot of roles.

No, you're starting to see someone exhausted with the lack of help while everyone else gets the leg up. Rather than answer my query as I've politely asked, you've decided to investigate on a personal level and don't like what you see. What makes you think you would or should have in the first place? Do you think it's very nice to be in this situation? Working 60, 70, up to 90 hour weeks? Last year I moved nearly 200 miles from down south to get away from the insane property rates. I will never be able to afford a family or a house. My plan is to go to a second world country for that. Or build a time machine and get back the years I've lost. What makes you think you'd like to listen to that? If you don't like who I am as a person that's your problem. But if you have a spare moment please tell me your thoughts on professional career advice.

 

[Josh]

A careers advisor isn't going to tell you what you want to hear, for that you need a mirror and then you can continue in your own little echo chamber, full of self pity and delusion.

The world doesn't owe you anything, stop thinking it does.

 

[dlockers]

A careers advisor isn't going to tell you what you want to hear, for that you need a mirror and then you can continue in your own little echo chamber, full of self pity and delusion.

The world doesn't owe you anything, stop thinking it does.

Ah, you must be one of those pesky "lie back and fall into a career path without thinking" people



Utter tripe. Mods must condemn.

 

[wesimmo]

Sometimes these sorts of threads end up being a really nice thing where the OP gets offered a job or something. This won't be one of those cases.

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

I say go for it. A professional will likely get a fairly good idea on where your "issues" lie, and quite quickly, I would guess. Although I suspect they will also pump you for a load of cash at the same time!!

My history has told me that the best way to progress has been to avoid paper qualifications, be presentable, positive, speak with confidence, and take on difficult tasks when the option arises. Doing the things that are scary/difficult/hard and showing effort in such things have worked wonders. For example, when I was younger, I was painfully shy in person, so I took on customer service/bar work. I also suffered terribly with a stammer, so I took on Helpdesk roles where I would spend hours on the phone to strangers. Public speaking was a huge fear, so I took a role where I would have to do this regularly. Challenge yourself, and you get better, but know that losing is also part of the game, and you have to learn from it to avoid the same issues again.

I have no degree, no IT qualifications, and no formal training in IT. Yet using these principles, I have worked in IT Technical Sales and Managerial roles for huge well known multinational companies. I have travelled extensively for these jobs, mentored people, and now manage a team of engineers working across the world. I have been fortunate to be promoted internally several times, but also missed out on occasion. (usually to someone better at my own game!) It hurts, but request feedback, and most importantly, WORK on the things they point out.

As I wrote earlier, go for it. I would be very interested to see what a professional would "make" of you, and your "situation". After all, you really have nothing to lose "IF" everything is as bad as you are painting it in this thread. At least this is a positive step, and one that shows you are willing to listen to advice, and learn from it.

Good luck, and I wish you the best in your future endeavours . Oh, and let us know how it went I am genuinely interested!

 

[OspreyO]

...

 

[Magiccarpet]

A careers advisor isn't going to tell you what you want to hear, for that you need a mirror and then you can continue in your own little echo chamber, full of self pity and delusion.

They probably won't be so up themselves either. If you've snoozed into jobs and muddled your way through life without thinking how are you going to relate to the problem? Why are you commenting on my personality, something you have no experience with, don't understand, and were never asked about? Very judgey in here!

I say go for it. A professional will likely get a fairly good idea on where your "issues" lie, and quite quickly, I would guess. Although I suspect they will also pump you for a load of cash at the same time!!

My history has told me that the best way to progress has been to avoid paper qualifications, be presentable, positive, speak with confidence, and take on difficult tasks when the option arises.

This is what I have done mostly, and it hasn't worked, which is the frustrating part. Volunteering for difficult and unpopular jobs and staying positive have earned me a little respect but you feel so exploited when people pile more work on you and you end up working harder for the same pay! I want to be taken seriously for once and if that means paying for it then why not.