Has anyone withdrawn their child from collective worship?

[dowie]

though the topic of the thread is about collective worship (presumably a CofE school with religious assemblies) and NOT RE lessons I'll chuck in my 2p re RE lessons since most of the recent comments seem to be about them

I don't really see an issue with them these days as they're not about preaching but learning about different cultures, having said that I wouldn't see much of an issue in them being dropped as similar material (with reference to the history of different areas of the world and re: current societies) could perhaps be covered in both History and Geography respectively if there is a need to make room in the curriculum for more useful subjects such as perhaps an enhanced CS/tech curriculum and some basic finance lessons (companies like pay day lenders really shouldn't exist and education could perhaps at least help to diminish their role - ditto to reducing reliance on food banks, credit cards and IVAs/bankruptcy etc..).

 

[Dis86]

though the topic of the thread is about collective worship (presumably a CofE school with religious assemblies) and NOT RE lessons I'll chuck in my 2p re RE lessons since most of the recent comments seem to be about them

I don't really see an issue with them these days as they're not about preaching but learning about different cultures, having said that I wouldn't see much of an issue in them being dropped as similar material (with reference to the history of different areas of the world and re: current societies) could perhaps be covered in both History and Geography respectively if there is a need to make room in the curriculum for more useful subjects such as perhaps an enhanced CS/tech curriculum and some basic finance lessons (companies like pay day lenders really shouldn't exist and education could perhaps at least help to diminish their role - ditto to reducing reliance on food banks, credit cards and IVAs/bankruptcy etc..).

I don't know what it's like down in the dirty South but in schools up here 'RE is actually grouped in with geography and history under the 'humanities section so it's certainly seen as related. Often it's specified that at GCSE a pupil must choose a minimum of one of the three humanities subjects.

 

[dowie]

I don't know what it's like down in the dirty South but in schools up here 'RE is actually grouped in with geography and history under the 'humanities section so it's certainly seen as related. Often it's specified that at GCSE a pupil must choose a minimum of one of the three humanities subjects.

I was educated in the Midlands thanks, I moved to the "dirty south" in order to earn more money. IIRC all three subjects were compulsory for me at school.

 

[chris.tarry85]

Sorry, I requested the thread be re-opened but then forgot to check if it had!.

So, this was finally resolved in January this year, almost a year after the initial request was raised!

To cut a long story short, the school were as obstructive as possible, insisting for example that to be removed from these elements of collective worship my daughter would have to be removed from the entirety of any assembly that contained any collective worship.

There were also numerous other punitive measures such as specifically calling out significant school events that she would not be able to attend - the leavers ceremony when she reaches the end of year six for example.

It got to a point in the middle of 2016 where we decided enough was enough and instructed a solicitor to prepare to take action against the school for discrimination (having no religion or being an atheist is protected in the same way as belonging to a particular religion).

Two very to the point letters were sent to the school without response, so in September once the summer holidays were over we instigated proceedings.

Less than a week before the first hearing, the headteacher and chair of Governors both resigned and the school and education authority offered to meet our request in full, cover our costs and give a (very small) settlement.

In the interest of moving on, we accepted this and donated the settlement to the humanist society.

We have since heard from other members of staff that this was very much a crusade by the head and char of Governors, against the advice of other staff members and even the council. It seems they just didn't realise when to back down.

We have had nothing but perfect treatment since from the school and I know of at least two other parents who have also now withdrawn children from Collective Worship

Any questions please do shout, although I hope no-one else will need to go through such a palaver!

 

[Glaucus]

good result and not surprised by the head and governor.
I know someone who works in HR(very high up) at a school, and they are always arguing with those two about what they can legally do, only to be ignored, even though they are the expert and not them. Only to then have to try and sort it out when the **** hits the fan.

 

[Dis86]

Sounds like a waste if time and money for something that would have no detrimental effect at all. Oh well.

 

[chris.tarry85]

Sounds like a waste if time and money for something that would have no detrimental effect at all. Oh well.

To stop my daughter being preached to by someone who took pleasure in telling 4 & 5 year old that they sinned and had to repent?!? Like I said at the start this was beginning to actually scare some of the younger kids!

If that wasn't bad enough the attempted blackmail that followed really pushed it over the edge.

Oh and in the end it didn't cost us anything.

 

[dowie]

Two very to the point letters were sent to the school without response, so in September once the summer holidays were over we instigated proceedings.

Less than a week before the first hearing, the headteacher and chair of Governors both resigned and the school and education authority offered to meet our request in full, cover our costs and give a (very small) settlement.

In the interest of moving on, we accepted this and donated the settlement to the humanist society.

We have since heard from other members of staff that this was very much a crusade by the head and char of Governors, against the advice of other staff members and even the council. It seems they just didn't realise when to back down.

good result

Sounds like a waste if time and money for something that would have no detrimental effect at all. Oh well.

well there was a detrimental effect, they wasted the time of the OP by denying something he was perfectly entitled to request(I'd wager if he was Muslim/Jewish/Sihk/Hindu then it wouldn't have been an issue - certainly when I was at school the non-christian but otherwise religious kids just did their homework in the library during religious assemblies), it seems the school has now learned its lesson and hopefully other schools in the area are now aware of this incident too thus plenty of other people going forwards ought to have had things made easier for them as a result of the OPs actions

 

[Dis86]

To stop my daughter being preached to by someone who took pleasure in telling 4 & 5 year old that they sinned and had to repent?!? Like I said at the start this was beginning to actually scare some of the younger kids!

If that wasn't bad enough the attempted blackmail that followed really pushed it over the edge.

Oh and in the end it didn't cost us anything.

It cost the local L.A. money at a time when budgets are massively under strain. The only people who will suffer as a result of that are other children.
If it was as terrifying as you portray then why was there not a mass revolt from all parents?

 

[dowie]

It cost the local L.A. money at a time when budgets are massively under strain. The only people who will suffer as a result of that are other children.
If it was as terrifying as you portray then why was there not a mass revolt from all parents?

not really his fault, it is the headmaster and head governor who cost the local authority money through their stubbornness - hopefully other heads in the area will have taken note (and indeed the local authority) so that when similar requests are made in future they are simply adhered to and not turned into a load of nonsense as a result of someone abusing their position of authority

I'd suspect that any parent in that area facing trouble/resistance from a school in future need only contact the local authority while copying in the head teacher and governor's and mention legal action in order for people to suddenly do their job properly

 

[Malevolence]

I was suspended from RE class and assemblies from the 2nd year of High School on wards. It was great, I used to have to sit in the staff room for both of those and spent the time doing the previous night's homework.

 

[Dis86]

not really his fault, it is the headmaster and head governor who cost the local authority money through their stubbornness - hopefully other heads in the area will have taken note (and indeed the local authority) so that when similar requests are made in future they are simply adhered to and not turned into a load of nonsense as a result of someone abusing their position of authority

Depends on your point of view. Was the OP not stubborn? Like I say, where wad the mass revolt from other parents if it was that terrifying? Where were the other horrified and soul fearing children?
This talk of punitive measures also reeks. The school sound like, from my experience attending a religious school, that they have highlighted events which also had a religious aspect attached. You don't want you kid having that religious experience then yes, you are going to miss out on some events. Certainly my end of year events all had attendance and mass from a priest. End of term assemblies did too.

 

[darkgen]

Wow; surprised by OPs circumstance. I was schooled in the 70/80's and although I attended CofE Primary and Secondary schools, the actual extent of the religious overtones never really extended beyond the assemblies in the mornings and the typical nativities during the Christmas period. I do not recall ever feeling particularly preached too and only have a fond memory of that time. Considering the state has become more secular since those days it is unnerving to think that not only does such indoctrination still exist, it would appear it is becoming more extreme in its enforced subscription.

I’m child-free and an atheist.

 

[dowie]

Depends on your point of view. Was the OP not stubborn?

well firstly the OP was making a legitimate request and the head was being deliberately difficult about it/obstructing it

secondly a solicitor seemingly agreed with him + the head teacher and head governor resigned + the local authority settled - which again points to the OP being in the right here and the head teacher not only being a bit difficult but quite likely acting against the law...

perhaps both parties were a bit stubborn but if you're stubborn as a result of being wronged and you achieve the result you wanted + potentially make a difference then what is wrong with being stubborn in that instance? It is the other parties here (the head teacher and the head governor) who were the problem re: being stubborn as they were at least equally as stubborn as the OP however they were in the wrong and they didn't back down until the last minute.

 

[Dis86]

Wow; surprised by OPs circumstance. I was schooled in the 70/80's and although I attended CofE Primary and Secondary schools, the actual extent of the religious overtones never really extended beyond the assemblies in the mornings and the typical nativities during the Christmas period. I do not recall ever feeling particularly preached too and only have a fond memory of that time. Considering the state has become more secular since those days it is unnerving to think that not only does such indoctrination still exist, it would appear it is becoming more extreme in its enforced subscription.

I’m child-free and an atheist.

Or perhaps we're only getting one slanted side of a story. Your experience sounds very similar to mine. My nephew currently attends a Catholic school and is 4. He certainly hasn't come home screaming that his mortal soul is in peril. My gf has taught at a number or religious schools and again her experience echoes our own.

I'm not saying it didn't happen but some people sometimes just like to try and pick fights with authority. Look at some of the folks we have on here and in this thread alone and the vehemence with which they speak about religion.

 

[KIA]

Great result, OP.

 

[dowie]

Or perhaps we're only getting one slanted side of a story. Your experience sounds very similar to mine. My nephew currently attends a Catholic school and is 4. He certainly hasn't come home screaming that his mortal soul is in peril. My gf has taught at a number or religious schools and again her experience echoes our own.

doesn't really matter about whether the preaching was scary tbh.. whether that is a slanted perspective or not is irrelevant IMO - main issue was that the OP made a legitimate request and the head teacher deliberately obstructed it which is something that shouldn't happen and has now been put right

 

[Dis86]

well firstly the OP was making a legitimate request and the head was being deliberately difficult about it/obstructing it

secondly a solicitor seemingly agreed with him + the head teacher and head governor resigned + the local authority settled - which again points to the OP being in the right here and the head teacher not only being a bit difficult but quite likely acting against the law...

perhaps both parties were a bit stubborn but if you're stubborn as a result of being wronged and you achieve the result you wanted + potentially make a difference then what is wrong with being stubborn. It is the other parties here (the head teacher and the head governor) who were the problem with being stubborn as they were in the wrong and they didn't back down.

No. We're being told by one party, the slighted party, that the head was obstructive. Have you considered the head was simply pointing out the difficulties that could have resulted? That's not being obstructive, it's giving people awareness, the issue being it's clearly what the OP didn't want to hear.
Also shock as legal professional being paid wants to pursue a matter?! We have solicitors pursue the defence of obviously guilty criminals every day!
Like I've pointed out I have personal experience of religious schools (I attended 3), my partner has worked at I think 4 and this experience has facts that certainly match but the rest just doesn't tie in. Some people just like to look to cause conflict. A prime example of which is my father!

 

[dowie]

No. We're being told by one party, the slighted party, that the head was obstructive. Have you considered the head was simply pointing out the difficulties that could have resulted? That's not being obstructive, it's giving people awareness, the issue being it's clearly what the OP didn't want to hear.
Also shock as legal professional being paid wants to pursue a matter?! We have solicitors pursue the defence of obviously guilty criminals every day!
Like I've pointed out I have personal experience of religious schools (I attended 3), my partner has worked at I think 4 and this experience has facts that certainly match but the rest just doesn't tie in. Some people just like to look to cause conflict. A prime example of which is my father!

Solicitors generally do give sound advice, if you think that they're all liars etc... then that is your own slanted perspective*. Regardless of that there are the other facts presented - the head + head governor resigning and the local authority adhering to the requests. So again whether the OP's perspective is slanted or not is irrelevant, the request itself doesn't require justification and is legal + the resignation and settlement illustrate in themselves that the school was in the wrong here.

*sure there are some ambulance chasers and no win no fee types going after personal injury claims etc.. but this case is rather different - I've got no reasonable reason to suspect that it is more likely that a legal professional would deliberately give the OP bad advice here.

 

[Dis86]

Solicitors generally do give sound advice, if you think that they're all liars etc... then that is your own slanted perspective*. Regardless of that there are the other facts presented - the head + head governor resigning and the local authority adhering to the requests. So again whether the OP's perspective is slanted or not is irrelevant, the request itself doesn't require justification and is legal + the resignation and settlement illustrate in themselves that the school was in the wrong here.

*sure there are some ambulance chasers and no win no fee types going after personal injury claims etc.. but this case is rather different - I've got no reasonable reason to suspect that it is more likely that a legal professional would deliberately give the OP bad advice here.

But there's nothing to say the head + gov resigned over this issue. They could have resigned over other completely unconnected matters. If they were incompetent surely they would have been sacked?

A solicitor saying they'll take a case, and a solicitor winning that case in court are 2 different things. Don't forget that in every court case there is at least 1 losing party.

The local authority could well have adhered to the requests quite frankly to make the threat of legal action go away. Do you think they can spare the funds to fight a legal case? Do you not think that perhaps they wanted to avoid some crap publicity?
I've received compensation from places before - does that mean that they were legally liable for something? Does it heck! It just means they acknowledged that something that happened was not to my level of satisfaction or just wanted to make me shut up and go away. In fact - when I worked in a customer services role I often had to give customers compensation when they were in the wrong because it was quicker, easier and cheaper than sitting arguing with them. If you fancy it, give your mobile phone provider a call tonight and make up a complete fabrication about lack of signal. I bet they give you a refund of some sort.

All I'm saying is we have one obviously biased point of view and series of events. To take that as gospel (ha!) would be foolish.