Have people become too soft?

Dis86 said:
Well that's a silly statement.

In the UK I believe the 1 year reoffending rate is about 40%.
If we let those people locked up or executed them then that would evidently prevent them from reoffending.
Click to expand...
Realistically you can’t execute every petty criminal so let’s say you double every sentence this massively increases the prison population and the cost of running the service. You may as you say see a reduction in offences initially but eventually you have to release them so long term you will see a return to Similar crime levels unless you actually target the causes of crime and use prison for rehabilitation. The countries in the developed world with the lowest crime rates are not those with the biggest prison populations.
 
a1ex2001 said:
Realistically you can’t execute every petty criminal so let’s say you double every sentence this massively increases the prison population and the cost of running the service. You may as you say see a reduction in offences initially but eventually you have to release them so long term you will see a return to Similar crime levels unless you actually target the causes of crime and use prison for rehabilitation. The countries in the developed world with the lowest crime rates are not those with the biggest prison populations.
Click to expand...

That's true, but can it definitely be stated that its because of low crime rates that they have the lowest prison populations and vice versa? Recording of crimes is done differently throughout the world, as are classifications of what are even crimes. The US prosecutes for crossing the road in the incorrect place ffs! Sweden is renowned for its lenient treatment and classification of sex crimes on the other side of the scale.
 
LOAM said:
We're a nation dominated by fear to the point of suppression and ruled by a group of people who have almost singlehandedly removed the hope and aspersions of an entire generation. We aren't a healthy nation and I don't think the social state is particularly surprising tbh.
Click to expand...
My first post on this forum.

I actually signed up to comment on the thread about the murdered MP, David Amess, which I see is now locked. I don't believe people are dominated by fear, but I do believe that many are incredibly frustrated with the inept and corrupt manner we are being governed. This has been a week of appalling news, starting with the revelations from the select committee looking into the government response to the pandemic being the worst public health disaster in memory. Possibly the worst in history. Today I read that 15 new born babies have died since 2011 in one hospital trust through an appalling staff shortage.

I am now retired and can say in all honesty, that I have never known times like these, nor heard about anything so bad since the end of the war. In 1978, with the so called winter of discontent, the papers were full of bad news. I lived through that time and can say hand on heart, that it wasn't as bad as the papers made out and 2021 is fifty times worse, yet there's barely a mention of it in the news.

It's puzzling why everyone is at each other's throats rather than directing their anger at those who are deliberately making the rich richer at the expense of both the poor and the societal chaos it creates, rather than focusing on what the real problem is.

It will take time to discover what prompted today's murder. Maybe we'll never actually find out what the root cause was. Is it at all possible that somebody grieving the death of his motherfrom covid in a care home was angered by the government's negligence? Is it possible That having been conned into £30K of tuition fee debt, Brexit ruined any chance of getting a decent job? Is it possible he's just been evicted, can't survive on universal credit and is so angry about the way his life chances panned out?

Maybe he has a mental illness, but thanks to the underfunding of the NHS, is unable to get treatment? Who knows? It only takes that final straw for it all to end in tears. It suits the government that the electorate is divided and it will do everything it can to keep us that way, because that's how it hopes to remain in power.

Dividing and conquering though, I put it to you, is a two-way street. Johnson and his incompetent cabal will only remain in power until the polls reflect that people are ****** off with the deal they are getting. Once that happens, the Tory party will become divided and sanity will have a chance of conquering.
 
Dis86 said:
That's true, but can it definitely be stated that its because of low crime rates that they have the lowest prison populations and vice versa? Recording of crimes is done differently throughout the world, as are classifications of what are even crimes. The US prosecutes for crossing the road in the incorrect place ffs! Sweden is renowned for its lenient treatment and classification of sex crimes on the other side of the scale.
Click to expand...
Find one but if decent research that supports harsh sentences as a way to reduce crime….. if it worked the US wouldn’t have one of the largest prison populations in the world with an incredibly high rate of re-offending!
 
Hard times create strong men,
Strong men create good times,
Good times create weak men,
Weak men create hard times. <<< you are here.
 
a1ex2001 said:
Find one but if decent research that supports harsh sentences as a way to reduce crime….. if it worked the US wouldn’t have one of the largest prison populations in the world with an incredibly high rate of re-offending!
Click to expand...

But they're not re-offending whilst locked up which improves society for those playing by the rules.
 
Dis86 said:
Yet we've seen massive increases in suicides and mental health issues. We're certainly not all getting by.
Click to expand...

Which have occured before in other times of trouble. There may well have been fewer suicides in the past because of the previous power of Christianity. Also, have suicide rates actually increased due to the pandemic? The latest I could find with a quick look was a bit in The Lancet.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00087-9/fulltext

The number of suicides in April-October 2020, after the first lockdown began, was 121•3 per month, compared to 125•7 per month in January-March 2020 (-4%; 95% CI-19% to 13%, p = 0•59). Incidence rate ratios did not show a significant rise in individual months after lockdown began and were not raised during the 2-month lockdown period April-May 2020 (IRR: 1•01 [0•81–1•25]) or the 5-month period after the easing of lockdown, June-October 2020 (0•94 [0•81–1•09]). Comparison of the suicide rates after lockdown began in 2020 for the same months in selected areas in 2019 showed no difference.
Click to expand...

As for mental health issues, any apparent increase in modern times could easily be explained by an increase in diagnosis. Even major mental health issues caused by war weren't really recognised until WW2 (there was some talk of "shell shock" before then, but soldiers were still being executed for mental health issues) and even then only amongst combatants even though civilians were very widely affected by that war. Random example - my mother had PTSD after WW2. And yes, I do know what PTSD is and I do mean PTSD. I'm not making a silly exaggeration like calling a cold "flu" or a mild preference for order "OCD". I'm talking about flashbacks, mindless fear and panic, the whole nine yards. She was a child and a civilian with no active role in the war, but the war came to her as it did to many other civilians. Like almost everyone else affected that way, she wasn't diagnosed. Any stats on mental health issues as a result of WW2 would be massively under-reporting them.

LabR@t said:
When did we become a nation of wets?
What on earth will happen if we are ever tested as a nation again?
Click to expand...

My guess is that the situation would be roughly the same as it has been in the past - some people thrive on it, most people endure it, some people break under it.

Some years ago, I was talking with a WW2 veteran. I was somewhat younger then, young enough to have been drafted in a war. I said that I wasn't sure I or people in general could have risen to the occasion as his generation had. He said that they hadn't been sure either.

You can't know, not really know, how you'll act under pressure until you're under that pressure. We're "a nation of wets" because we have the luxury of being able to be.
 
Angilion said:
Which have occured before in other times of trouble. There may well have been fewer suicides in the past because of the previous power of Christianity. Also, have suicide rates actually increased due to the pandemic? The latest I could find with a quick look was a bit in The Lancet.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00087-9/fulltext



As for mental health issues, any apparent increase in modern times could easily be explained by an increase in diagnosis. Even major mental health issues caused by war weren't really recognised until WW2 (there was some talk of "shell shock" before then, but soldiers were still being executed for mental health issues) and even then only amongst combatants even though civilians were very widely affected by that war. Random example - my mother had PTSD after WW2. And yes, I do know what PTSD is and I do mean PTSD. I'm not making a silly exaggeration like calling a cold "flu" or a mild preference for order "OCD". I'm talking about flashbacks, mindless fear and panic, the whole nine yards. She was a child and a civilian with no active role in the war, but the war came to her as it did to many other civilians. Like almost everyone else affected that way, she wasn't diagnosed. Any stats on mental health issues as a result of WW2 would be massively under-reporting them.



My guess is that the situation would be roughly the same as it has been in the past - some people thrive on it, most people endure it, some people break under it.

Some years ago, I was talking with a WW2 veteran. I was somewhat younger then, young enough to have been drafted in a war. I said that I wasn't sure I or people in general could have risen to the occasion as his generation had. He said that they hadn't been sure either.

You can't know, not really know, how you'll act under pressure until you're under that pressure. We're "a nation of wets" because we have the luxury of being able to be.
Click to expand...

It's important to remember that before the wars, people suffering from mental illness would be despatched to mental asylums or the workhouse, depending on how much they were worth. Out of sight and out of mind.
 
Yes and it's not helped by censorship of anyone's views that aren't insipid enough not to cause some ***Don't bypass the swear filters*** offence.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
thenewoc said:
Yes and it's not helped by censorship of anyone's views that aren't insipid enough not to cause some offence.
Click to expand...

I find this view offensive. I define this thread as a personal safe space in which you are not allowed to opine a view I find offensive.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom