Heathrow total shutdown

Just heard a part of the same inquiry on the radio.

Some other interesting points came up - I wasn't aware that LHR is the most expensive airport in the world (per passenger charge to the airlines).

Which make you wonder what exactly we're paying for?

And from the 15 or so minutes I heard, it appears the traditional game of pass the buck kicked off early in the proceedings.
 
esmozz said:
Just heard a part of the same inquiry on the radio.

Some other interesting points came up - I wasn't aware that LHR is the most expensive airport in the world (per passenger charge to the airlines).

Which make you wonder what exactly we're paying for?

And from the 15 or so minutes I heard, it appears the traditional game of pass the buck kicked off early in the proceedings.
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Yes, the passenger pays a lot in taxes leaving Heathrow (or UK in general). When you redeem airmiles, it is never good value to spend it on a flight flying out of the UK because of this. Online you will see people seeing this and that airmiles redeem on X route, it is never a UK one.
 
Why it's expensive?

I'm guessing things like the actual site is much more expensive than most, it's got some of the best/newest facilities in the country, it's IIRC our busiest because of it's location and size of the runways, the cost of staff is probably higher than a lot of the other airports, the security for the site is probably much higher than most of the other airports, and the fact they run 24/7* - a number of UK airports run very restricted services compared to Heathrow and just keeping the airport open for passengers all the time requires it be staffed to a much higher level than an airport that stops flight operations at say 9pm (the number of passengers overnight at heathrow might drop, but the numbers of staff to operate it safely won't drop anything like as much, you still need a lot of the airport to be fully manned even if passenger numbers drop to say a third).

As Raymond says you also have taxes, I'm not sure but doesn't heathrow also pay local fees as well as national?



*IIRC they don't do takeoffs normally between 11pm and something like 5am but they still do landings (inc emergency ones), and several thousand "night" flights per year.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
Yes, the passenger pays a lot in taxes leaving Heathrow (or UK in general). When you redeem airmiles, it is never good value to spend it on a flight flying out of the UK because of this. Online you will see people seeing this and that airmiles redeem on X route, it is never a UK one.
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Between APD, net zero and other things the UK government is hell bend on shafting it's aviation industry but that for another thread.
 
Werewolf said:
Why it's expensive?

I'm guessing things like the actual site is much more expensive than most, it's got some of the best/newest facilities in the country, it's IIRC our busiest because of it's location and size of the runways, the cost of staff is probably higher than a lot of the other airports, the security for the site is probably much higher than most of the other airports, and the fact they run 24/7 - a lot of UK airports run very restricted services compared to Heathrow and just keeping the airport open for passengers all the time requires it be staffed to a much higher level than an airport that stops flight operations at say 9pm (the number of passengers overnight at heathrow might drop, but the numbers of staff to operate it safely won't drop anything like as much, you still need a lot of the airport to be fully manned even if passenger numbers drop to say a third).

As Raymond says you also have taxes, I'm not sure but doesn't heathrow also pay local fees as well as national?
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Not just expensive - the most expensive in the world

All the things you mention are true for other airports, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam are bigger, with all the same cost pressures you've just mentioned.

And LHR isn't 24/7 in the truest sense due to noise restrictions on arrivals and departure. I believe in shuts at around 2200 and opens at around 0600 for flights. Many other major airports are fully operational 24/7.

As a country I really don't know why we put up with these things.
 
esmozz said:
Not just expensive - the most expensive in the world

All the things you mention are true for other airports, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam are bigger, with all the same cost pressures you've just mentioned.

And LHR isn't 24/7 in the truest sense due to noise restrictions on arrivals and departure. I believe in shuts at around 2200 and opens at around 0600 for flights. Many other major airports are fully operational 24/7.

As a country I really don't know why we put up with these things.
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The closing at night time thing confused me no end, the only 24/7 part is the door is open and a couple of coffee shops open. Immigration and customs don’t open until like 4am.
 
esmozz said:
Just heard a part of the same inquiry on the radio.

Some other interesting points came up - I wasn't aware that LHR is the most expensive airport in the world (per passenger charge to the airlines).

Which make you wonder what exactly we're paying for?

And from the 15 or so minutes I heard, it appears the traditional game of pass the buck kicked off early in the proceedings.
Click to expand...
I believe the UK has the highest passenger tax (not sure what the actual name is) in the world so that probably contributes to it.

Then there is the fact that all the landing and takeoff slots most likely command a pretty premium from Heathrow.
 
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Part of the issue is that it’s not 24/7 operation, it would be cheaper if they could operate fully 24/7 as they would have more capacity to sell.

They can’t operate 24/4 because people who live near the airport complain despite the airport being there first.

Bluecube said:
Dividends for the owners. Heathrow is just another British asset being sweated to provide dividends for foreign owners. Just another reason Britain is so poor - all the money flows out!
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Commercial airports are not typically nationalised assets. The clue is in the name.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Part of the issue is that it’s not 24/7 operation, it would be cheaper if they could operate fully 24/7 as they would have more capacity to sell.

They can’t operate 24/4 because people who live near the airport complain despite the airport being there first.


Commercial airports are not typically nationalised assets. The clue is in the name.
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It was until Thatcher flogged it.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Commercial airports are not typically nationalised assets. The clue is in the name.
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What’s your point? Heathrow is expensive for airlines because the owners want as much cash in dividends as possible. Other airports manage to provide better services for less because their owners aren’t as greedy. Nowhere did I mention nationalising Heathrow was a good idea
 
Bluecube said:
What’s your point? Heathrow is expensive for airlines because the owners want as much cash in dividends as possible. Other airports manage to provide better services for less because their owners aren’t as greedy. Nowhere did I mention nationalising Heathrow was a good idea
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That my friend is a massive assumption with literally no evidence to support it.

An airport at the scale of Heathrow that can operate 24/7 is going to be cheaper because it can have more capacity and spread its operating costs over more flights - how is that hard to understand?

Heathrow is full, it can accept no more flights, it ultimately charges what the market will bare because it can’t accept any more customers even if it wanted to. This is capitalism working as its intended to work. If Heathrow was too expensive, flights would be relocated to other nearby hub airports in Amsterdam and Paris or down to Gatwick (although Gatwick is also full but they could kick out their low cost operators for more premium flights).

If Heathrow shareholders are making such a massive profit from their investment, why don’t you have shares in Heathrow like all these other so called fat cats?
 
Heathrow has to pay business rates anyway - the monopoly they are granted and the local infrastructure costs aren't without reward to the tax payer.

... so will Heathrow have to pay passenger compensation (with todays affirmation it was avoidable / planned) ?
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
That my friend is a massive assumption with literally no evidence to support it.

An airport at the scale of Heathrow that can operate 24/7 is going to be cheaper because it can have more capacity and spread its operating costs over more flights - how is that hard to understand?

Heathrow is full, it can accept no more flights, it ultimately charges what the market will bare because it can’t accept any more customers even if it wanted to. This is capitalism working as its intended to work. If Heathrow was too expensive, flights would be relocated to other nearby hub airports in Amsterdam and Paris or down to Gatwick (although Gatwick is also full but they could kick out their low cost operators for more premium flights).

If Heathrow shareholders are making such a massive profit from their investment, why don’t you have shares in Heathrow like all these other so called fat cats?
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It doesn't work like that. Operating 24/7 is not going to make the airport cheaper.

Airport slot allocation and charges, as well as passenger service charges are complex issues outside the scope of this thread. I believe they are set by external organisations, with the input of the airport authority.

However, LHR charges what it does, in part because it is a monopoly.

It's also worth pointing out the the CEO of LHR's salary last year was £3.2 Million. Nice work if you can get it, eh?
 
Bluecube said:
Dividends for the owners. Heathrow is just another British asset being sweated to provide dividends for foreign owners. Just another reason Britain is so poor - all the money flows out!
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They probably get subsidies and tax discounts like seemingly every other major company in the UK, especially if they have foreign owners.

Only working people seem to pay any tax
 
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Raymond Lin said:
Yes, the passenger pays a lot in taxes leaving Heathrow (or UK in general). When you redeem airmiles, it is never good value to spend it on a flight flying out of the UK because of this. Online you will see people seeing this and that airmiles redeem on X route, it is never a UK one.
Click to expand...

I have a flight to San Francisco for work at the end of the month, the cost of the airfare is £3243 there and back with a total cost of £3994.72.

The additional charges are a bloody rip off.

Government, authority and airport charges Per adult
Air Passenger Duty - United Kingdom GBP 216.00
Passenger Service Charge - United Kingdom GBP 51.72
Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee - USA GBP 4.30
International Transportation Tax - USA GBP 17.70
International Transportation Tax - USA GBP 17.70
Animal & Plant Health User Fee (Aphis) - USA GBP 2.90
Immigration User Fee - USA GBP 5.40
Customs User Fee - USA GBP 5.50
Passenger Facility Charge GBP 3.50
Total government, authority and airport charges*
GBP 324.72


Carrier Imposed Charge GBP 317.00 <---- This is apparently to cover the cost of the fuel!
Total British Airways fees and surcharges
GBP 317.00
 
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Moley said:
I have a flight to San Francisco for work at the end of the month, the cost of the airfare is £3243 there and back with a total cost of £3994.72.

The additional charges are a bloody rip off.

Government, authority and airport charges Per adult
Air Passenger Duty - United Kingdom GBP 216.00
Passenger Service Charge - United Kingdom GBP 51.72
Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee - USA GBP 4.30
International Transportation Tax - USA GBP 17.70
International Transportation Tax - USA GBP 17.70
Animal & Plant Health User Fee (Aphis) - USA GBP 2.90
Immigration User Fee - USA GBP 5.40
Customs User Fee - USA GBP 5.50
Passenger Facility Charge GBP 3.50
Total government, authority and airport charges*
GBP 324.72


Carrier Imposed Charge GBP 317.00 <---- This is apparently to cover the cost of the fuel!
Total British Airways fees and surcharges
GBP 317.00
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I would sort have assumed that the cost of the fuel was included in the cost of you know, the actual flight.

But then I'm not used to the ways that airlines try and squeeze every penny out of the customers (although I'm a little surprised Ryan Air hasn't started charging a fee to have a light above your seat and a seat you're not sharing with someone on your lap).
 
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