Help to replace stolen kit...

[Kingy]

Morning all,

I'm on holiday atm, but have had a phone call to say that there's been another break-in, and we've been cleared out again.

I'm keen to get the ball rolling and replace the kit that's gone, but am completely clueless when it comes to AV, and was hoping some kind soul might take pity on me and give me a few pointers. We had a Sony 52W5500, and a Sony BDV-360IS (Bluray player and HT-IS100 combo).

Replacing the TV sound be reasonably simple, I'll pick up something equivalent on eBay until the Sony 2011 range is available, and make a choice then.

The audio is a bit of a headache. This meant I got everything connected, but I feel that the ergonomics could be simpler if I'm starting again...

Ideally I'd like to be able to tun the TV on to one single channel, then have everything connected to the amp, and use the amp remote to switch inputs. I know it sounds stupid, but that leaves me with a question over how many inputs I need. If an amp has 4 * HDMI inputs, that's the SkyHD/PS3/X360/PC sorted, but what about the Wii? Can I use a component input as well as all 4 * HDMI inputs? Or do I need at least 5 inputs to get every connected to the amp?

I've been looking at all-in-one systems, as I don't understand what I need and how to connect it with a 'separates' solution. So far I've found the Onkyo HT-S5405/HT-S6305, which look good, and my brother (bless him) has suggested the Yamaha YSP-5100 soundbar. Expensive, but excellent, and very simple to set up it seems... Question marks over having it set up in the corner of a room though?

I was trying to do some research on my own, and have even managed to work out that the reason nobody sell amps is because they all call them AV recievers! (impressive powers of deduction right? ), however this has opened up a whole new can of worms re inputs, as I've now found an amp with 6 * HDMI inputs, which made me wonder if I need so many as per my question above?

Looks are important, but of secondary importance to simplicity. 3D support is a must for future-proofing. An ipod/iphone dock would be nice, as would wireless streaming capability (this is much less important though). I'm not fussed about having the latest model unless the new features are worth having) and I don't mind picking up something in mint condition from eBay/classifeds, if it saves me money / gets me more features cheaper...

Budget is reasonably fluid. The £400 Onkyos are attractive price-wise, but the £1000 Yamaha soundbar isn't completely out of the question if I can find a demo...

Can anyone answer my input question, and/or point me in the right direction please?

 

[lucid]

Sorry to here the news about your burglary.

AV amp/receiver benefits in brief: better sound, better feature count, not tied to Blu-ray player, more inputs for other sources. BTW, they're called receivers because they a radio tuner.

Remember, most AV Receivers don't come with speakers. So if there are features that you want which aren't included in the Onkyos you've had a look at then you'll have to budget for some speakers too.

iPod docks: Having an iPod dock included or built-in isn't such a big deal. You can buy a separate iPod dock and mate it with most AV receivers.

Playing network streamed music files: Not at the price range of the Onkyo 6305 unless sacrificing something else (like packaged speakers).... You can't get a quart out of a pint pot. The new Onkyo TX-NR509 does this, but only via a network cable (or a 3rd party wireless bridge or homeplugs) You'll also need to buy speakers on top. (NR - Onkyo's code for Network Receiver)

Connecting via a single cable: You'll need an AV Amp that can convert component (and composite and S-video) to a HDMI type signal. Again you need to up your budget. I think you'll find this on the TX-NR579 model. Alternatively, hook up a component video lead along with the HDMI from the amp to the TV. Pretty much the same result but for less than £20. This will work for any AV Receiver that has a set of component input/output sockets

TXNR579 + home cinema speaker package + a pair of network homeplugs or a wireless bridge...... That'll tick all your boxes.

 

[Kingy]

Sorry to here the news about your burglary.

AV amp/receiver benefits in brief: better sound, better feature count, not tied to Blu-ray player, more inputs for other sources. BTW, they're called receivers because they a radio tuner.

Remember, most AV Receivers don't come with speakers. So if there are features that you want which aren't included in the Onkyos you've had a look at then you'll have to budget for some speakers too.

iPod docks: Having an iPod dock included or built-in isn't such a big deal. You can buy a separate iPod dock and mate it with most AV receivers.

Playing network streamed music files: Not at the price range of the Onkyo 6305 unless sacrificing something else (like packaged speakers).... You can't get a quart out of a pint pot. The new Onkyo TX-NR509 does this, but only via a network cable (or a 3rd party wireless bridge or homeplugs) You'll also need to buy speakers on top. (NR - Onkyo's code for Network Receiver)

Connecting via a single cable: You'll need an AV Amp that can convert component (and composite and S-video) to a HDMI type signal. Again you need to up your budget. I think you'll find this on the TX-NR579 model. Alternatively, hook up a component video lead along with the HDMI from the amp to the TV. Pretty much the same result but for less than £20. This will work for any AV Receiver that has a set of component input/output sockets

TXNR579 + home cinema speaker package + a pair of network homeplugs or a wireless bridge...... That'll tick all your boxes.

Thanks for your reply...

I'm not sure I'm making myself clear on the input side of things, it's not that I want to convert Component to HDMI per say, rather that I want to know if I can use all inputs at once...

Could I use all four HDMI ports at once, AND the component input, or would the use of component input cost me a HDMI 'channel'? ie does each connector/port have it's own channel, or are there a set number of channels, with various means of connecting equipment to them?

Re seperate speakers, I don't have a problem with upping the budget if an AV receiver and speaker package is going to be better than an all-in-one package, but I do have a problem understanding *how* it's better. Also, while I understand I will need to buy seperate speakers / a sub if I go down the AV receiver route, how do I compare them? I know(?) that more watts/power/inputs makes for a better AV receiver, and that an active sub is better than a passive one (no idea why though), but don't know what to look for to identify a good set of speakers?

Thanks for helping, sorry if I'm asking daft questions... )

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

If you're struggling with burglaries, have you considered in wall speakers? Might be worth thinking about.

 

[Kingy]

If you're struggling with burglaries, have you considered in wall speakers? Might be worth thinking about.

Worth considering on a new/self build, but a lot of hassle, and wouldn't stop people swiping everything else but the speakers if the bad luck were to strike again...

I'm not having scum influence my toys...

 

[lucid]

Could I use all four HDMI ports at once, AND the component input, or would the use of component input cost me a HDMI 'channel'? ie does each connector/port have it's own channel, or are there a set number of channels, with various means of connecting equipment to them?

Modern AV amps have assignable inputs, so the physical video sockets don't correspond to individual inputs. For something such as the Onkyos the remote has buttons marked DVD/BD - CBL/SAT - VCR/PVR - Game - Aux - TV/CD - Port. 7 video source selections That means you can assign the four HDMI sockets and that still leaves three button inputs to be assigned to the physical connections available on the back. So you could have 4 HDMIs and a couple of components and a composite video. Connecting an iPod dock though overrides one of the video input assigns.

Re seperate speakers, I don't have a problem with upping the budget if an AV receiver and speaker package is going to be better than an all-in-one package, but I do have a problem understanding *how* it's better. Also, while I understand I will need to buy seperate speakers / a sub if I go down the AV receiver route, how do I compare them? I know(?) that more watts/power/inputs makes for a better AV receiver, and that an active sub is better than a passive one (no idea why though), but don't know what to look for to identify a good set of speakers?

Budget is the first guide. If you think about it £100 for 5x satellite speakers and a sub means that your sub costs £50 and each satellite speaker cost £10. These are still better than the speakers you'll get with a Comet/Curry home cinema kit, but ask yourself (or have a look) - how many subs do you see for sale at £50, or pairs of speakers for £20? Sure, there are cost savings by putting everything in one cardboard box for shipping, but not that much of a saving. So it's the materials and component quality where the rest of the savings have been made.

More money means better made boxes with better quality speakers. That in turn means better sound. Performance goes up pretty rapidly every £100 to about the £400-£500 mark. At that point you start to get away from the little satellite speaker systems to larger Hi-Fi style speakers. Bigger cabinets and better drivers again. Performance takes another leap.

Depending on what you plan to spend and where you intend to shop have a think about listening to some systems. Always trust your own ears. Other peoples opinions (including mine) are prejudiced. One man's meat is another man's poison... and all that.

 

[wardy78]

Hey there, sorry about your break-in. My bro in law has just got the amp up from mine being the pioneer vsx lx53 which is 3d ready and he got on a deal that came with a 3d player for under a grand. As for the connection question I use hdmi inputs for blu-ray, sky etc and component for xbox which uses an optical for the sound. These receivers have a built in ipod connection too. Hope this is helpful to you mate, and bear in mind I'm far from an expert but don't think I'm talking crap. Good luck with the insurance firm.

 

[the_hilders]

Before you buy anything why dont you invest in a cctv infra red package system and a house alarm and any other deterents deemed effective.. burglars will think twice

 

[Kingy]

Modern AV amps have assignable inputs, so the physical video sockets don't correspond to individual inputs. For something such as the Onkyos the remote has buttons marked DVD/BD - CBL/SAT - VCR/PVR - Game - Aux - TV/CD - Port. 7 video source selections That means you can assign the four HDMI sockets and that still leaves three button inputs to be assigned to the physical connections available on the back. So you could have 4 HDMIs and a couple of components and a composite video. Connecting an iPod dock though overrides one of the video input assigns.

Budget is the first guide. If you think about it £100 for 5x satellite speakers and a sub means that your sub costs £50 and each satellite speaker cost £10. These are still better than the speakers you'll get with a Comet/Curry home cinema kit, but ask yourself (or have a look) - how many subs do you see for sale at £50, or pairs of speakers for £20? Sure, there are cost savings by putting everything in one cardboard box for shipping, but not that much of a saving. So it's the materials and component quality where the rest of the savings have been made.

More money means better made boxes with better quality speakers. That in turn means better sound. Performance goes up pretty rapidly every £100 to about the £400-£500 mark. At that point you start to get away from the little satellite speaker systems to larger Hi-Fi style speakers. Bigger cabinets and better drivers again. Performance takes another leap.

Depending on what you plan to spend and where you intend to shop have a think about listening to some systems. Always trust your own ears. Other peoples opinions (including mine) are prejudiced. One man's meat is another man's poison... and all that.

Thanks for your reply...

Good news on the assignable inputs then, but where are you looking to determine that the Onkyos have 7 assignble inputs? I'm not doubting you, just want to try to compare like for like with Onkyo/Yamaha/Sony, and haven't seen (read:understood ) anything in the specs I've read...

The Onkyo HT-S5405 All-In-One looks like it'd do a job at £370, but I'm not sure how it compares to the Yamaha RXV-567/NSP-285 combo at £330?

Do speaker packages tend to include speaker cables, or do I need to worry about budgetting and terminating these seperately?

Which are more important, speakers or receivers? If I were to look at spending more than the two examples above, am I better putting that extra money towards a better/newer receiver, or a better speaker package?

 

[lucid]

Good news on the assignable inputs then, but where are you looking to determine that the Onkyos have 7 assignble inputs? I'm not doubting you, just want to try to compare like for like with Onkyo/Yamaha/Sony, and haven't seen (read:understood ) anything in the specs I've read...

It's something I know because I sell and install this sort of gear for a living. But I doubled checked the user manual to get the exact number on the Onkyos just to be sure. Download and read the manual. Rather unsurprisingly you want the section that says "Assigning the inputs"

The Onkyo HT-S5405 All-In-One looks like it'd do a job at £370, but I'm not sure how it compares to the Yamaha RXV-567/NSP-285 combo at £330?

The Yamaha kit is better. It looks like it's at an artificially low price as Yamaha are moving stock. This was a £400 amp, and the speakers somewhere around the £100-£150 price mark. So for £330 all in it's a steal.

What you're getting extra is the video scaling and conversion. The Onkyo kits don't do this. You'd have to go up a couple of steps to the equivalent £400 Onkyo amp for that feature.

Do speaker packages tend to include speaker cables, or do I need to worry about budgetting and terminating these seperately?

Ask the retailer or enquire from the manufacturer. I tend to use better speakers in my installs, so I always spec decent cable to go with them.

Which are more important, speakers or receivers? If I were to look at spending more than the two examples above, am I better putting that extra money towards a better/newer receiver, or a better speaker package?

That's a tough one. The sub-£600 AV amp/receiver market is very very competitive, so for £50 steps you can generally find something with more features or more power. The speaker market is different.

There's a big cost jump in going from the little sub-sat packages to a full blown 5.1 system. So you're speaker budget would have to be substantially higher - say £400-£500 minimum - to get up to that next level in performance that you get with bigger speakers. Add cables and speaker stands and your budget for an amp & speakers is closer to £1000 in total.

 

[Kingy]

It's something I know because I sell and install this sort of gear for a living. But I doubled checked the user manual to get the exact number on the Onkyos just to be sure. Download and read the manual. Rather unsurprisingly you want the section that says "Assigning the inputs"

The Yamaha kit is better. It looks like it's at an artificially low price as Yamaha are moving stock. This was a £400 amp, and the speakers somewhere around the £100-£150 price mark. So for £330 all in it's a steal.

What you're getting extra is the video scaling and conversion. The Onkyo kits don't do this. You'd have to go up a couple of steps to the equivalent £400 Onkyo amp for that feature.

Ask the retailer or enquire from the manufacturer. I tend to use better speakers in my installs, so I always spec decent cable to go with them.


That's a tough one. The sub-£600 AV amp/receiver market is very very competitive, so for £50 steps you can generally find something with more features or more power. The speaker market is different.

There's a big cost jump in going from the little sub-sat packages to a full blown 5.1 system. So you're speaker budget would have to be substantially higher - say £400-£500 minimum - to get up to that next level in performance that you get with bigger speakers. Add cables and speaker stands and your budget for an amp & speakers is closer to £1000 in total.

Legend, thank you very much..

I did some looking into reviews of the Yamaha RXV-567, and it didn't seem to do as well as the Onkyo equivalents. To that end, my shortlist is now:-

Onkyo TX-SR578 - £200
Onkyo TX-SR608 - £325
Onkyo TX-NR609 - £500

All of the above do 1080p upscaling (which is a benefit over the TX-SR508 that the HT-S6305 includes). There seems to be a step up in power between the TX-SR578, and the TX-SR608, but I'm unclear on what power means? Does power mean more volume, or more quality? I very rarely play loud music, so I wouldn't be tremendously interested in extra power if its the former... Similarly, is the extra quality of a better/more powerful AV Receiver going to be noticeable if I only have modest speakers?

On the speaker front, while I was checking out reviews, I noticed that the Boston Acoustics SoundWare XS 5.1 did well, so they've made the shortlist too. They're about £270, & I hoped that a TX-SR578/BASXS5.1 combo at £470 would be a noticeable step up in quality from the Yamaha RXV-567/NSP-285 combo at £330? But that seems to go against what you've said?

 

[lucid]

At this point I think you've gathered enough knowledge to decide the sort of features you want and the budget required to get them. I'd suggest it's time for you to start listening to some gear and decide about the sound that you like.

As for the Boston vs the Yamaha speakers - IMO they're all lifestyle systems with tiny satellite speakers and all pretty much equally compromised by that fact. Have a look at something like the Q Acoustics 1020 range and compare the size of the cabinets, and the size of the drivers and the weights. Although they cost more, the 1020s are still budget home cinema speakers, but in a different class to the tiny sub-sat systems.

For years Bose have been pushing this idea of tiny satellite speakers and a sub.... And for years those of us with ears have all found that the sound has a whopping hole in the midrange. This is right where voices sit. Now then, if Bose...and let's be fair it's a big company that knows a lot about sound...if Bose can't get this concept to work at the sort of prices they charge then I'm damned sure that someone selling speakers at a fraction of the price is going to have an equally tough time.

I had a listen to an Onkyo 608 via some Cambridge Audio Minx S215 which are reputedly better than the BASW5.1. All I can say is that Bose have nothing to worry about.

 

[Kingy]

At this point I think you've gathered enough knowledge to decide the sort of features you want and the budget required to get them. I'd suggest it's time for you to start listening to some gear and decide about the sound that you like.

As for the Boston vs the Yamaha speakers - IMO they're all lifestyle systems with tiny satellite speakers and all pretty much equally compromised by that fact. Have a look at something like the Q Acoustics 1020 range and compare the size of the cabinets, and the size of the drivers and the weights. Although they cost more, the 1020s are still budget home cinema speakers, but in a different class to the tiny sub-sat systems.

For years Bose have been pushing this idea of tiny satellite speakers and a sub.... And for years those of us with ears have all found that the sound has a whopping hole in the midrange. This is right where voices sit. Now then, if Bose...and let's be fair it's a big company that knows a lot about sound...if Bose can't get this concept to work at the sort of prices they charge then I'm damned sure that someone selling speakers at a fraction of the price is going to have an equally tough time.

I had a listen to an Onkyo 608 via some Cambridge Audio Minx S215 which are reputedly better than the BASW5.1. All I can say is that Bose have nothing to worry about.

Thanks for your help...

I'm tempted to order online so I could get it set up as soon as I get back from holiday, and minimise the time with the gaping hole in the room. I imagine I'd get most of my money back if I wanted to move on either of last seasons models now that they've been discounted to clear the stock. I could even test out the others when I have more time and then change/upgrade if necessary? Maybe I'm just over complicating matters...

From reading on AV forums, it looks like the BASW5.1 don't come with speaker cable. Is there much to know about speaker cable? I see different specs on ebay, but do they really matter? Is it similar to HDMI cables, where I'm told that the cheapest ebay job will do as it's a digital signal?

If I just buy a roll of speaker cable, how easy is it to terminate the cables? do the connectors just clip on, or do they need soldering? What are banana plugs?

 

[Kingy]

nm

 

[lucid]

The cable nazis will be here any second to suggest that anything other than twin & earth mains cable is a waste of money..... I disagree.

What you buy, how much you spend and where you buy it from are up to you. All I'm going to do is say what I've found in trying different cables in the context of various systems.

Solid core mains cable (A.K.A. Twin & Earth 1.5mm) - Cheap <70p/m in smallish quantities. I find it sounds like a harsh version of cheap basic speaker cable. It's not flexible and it looks ugly.

Mains flex - 0.75mm twin - <80p/m in smallish quantities. Music sounds dull and lifeless through this stuff.

Basic non-oxygen-free multi strand speaker cable - from <50p/m - an improvement over solid core but still sounds dull. Cheaper than mains cable though, so at least it won't cost much.

Oxygen free (OFC) multi-strand copper speaker cables - from <30p/m to >£2/m Sounds brighter and livelier. Thicker gauges seem more bassy.

Silver plated OFC copper cables - from <£1.50/p to the sky is the limit. Suitable for large hi-fi speakers.

IMO, with the deals going on Ebay it seems silly not to buy an oxygen free multistrand cable. Go for something with a cross sectional area of at least 0.75mm and no more than CSA 1.5mm. Too thick and you'll have trouble fitting it in spring clip terminals on speakers if fitter.

Banana plugs: The standard way of terminating a speaker cable in a convenient way to hook up cables to an amp. Avoids the possibility of stray filaments from a bare wire connection shorting the speaker terminals. Usually designed with two small grub screws to secure the cable. Easy to DIY fit.

Tip: Don't solder speaker plugs on to cable if it can be helped.

 

[Kingy]

The cable nazis will be here any second to suggest that anything other than twin & earth mains cable is a waste of money..... I disagree.

What you buy, how much you spend and where you buy it from are up to you. All I'm going to do is say what I've found in trying different cables in the context of various systems.

Solid core mains cable (A.K.A. Twin & Earth 1.5mm) - Cheap <70p/m in smallish quantities. I find it sounds like a harsh version of cheap basic speaker cable. It's not flexible and it looks ugly.

Mains flex - 0.75mm twin - <80p/m in smallish quantities. Music sounds dull and lifeless through this stuff.

Basic non-oxygen-free multi strand speaker cable - from <50p/m - an improvement over solid core but still sounds dull. Cheaper than mains cable though, so at least it won't cost much.

Oxygen free (OFC) multi-strand copper speaker cables - from <30p/m to >£2/m Sounds brighter and livelier. Thicker gauges seem more bassy.

Silver plated OFC copper cables - from <£1.50/p to the sky is the limit. Suitable for large hi-fi speakers.

IMO, with the deals going on Ebay it seems silly not to buy an oxygen free multistrand cable. Go for something with a cross sectional area of at least 0.75mm and no more than CSA 1.5mm. Too thick and you'll have trouble fitting it in spring clip terminals on speakers if fitter.

Banana plugs: The standard way of terminating a speaker cable in a convenient way to hook up cables to an amp. Avoids the possibility of stray filaments from a bare wire connection shorting the speaker terminals. Usually designed with two small grub screws to secure the cable. Easy to DIY fit.

Tip: Don't solder speaker plugs on to cable if it can be helped.

Excellent, have found what looks like good cable and more banana plugs than I could ever need...

Is there any significance to the red/black connectors?

Also, what's your take on HDMI cables? Any science to it, or just the get the cheapest that meets v1.4?

 

[Nick1881]

I would go for QED Classic 79 strand as a minimum for cable.

I bought M Audio plugs, I like the tidy look.

 

[lucid]

Is there any significance to the red/black connectors?

The colours are so you can mark positive from negative. Red = Positive (+ve), Black = Negative (-ve). You know that you wire red to red and black to black from the amp to the speakers, don't you?

Also, what's your take on HDMI cables? Any science to it, or just the get the cheapest that meets v1.4?

There's a huge amount of science in it, but a lot of it only applies to longer lengths or where you're daisy chaining three or four devices from source to display.

The cheapest of anything is rarely good value. With HDMI, meeting the spec could mean blowing it out of the water (a good thing), or just scraping a pass. Cables that only just meet the spec will be OK for direct source-to-display connection, but there's little leeway if something else is marginal too. Also, as electronics age they drift off spec. This affects HDMI devices just the same too. A extra pound or two spent now on something a bit thicker with better shielding might save you far more in money and time in the future.

 

[Kingy]

I would go for QED Classic 79 strand as a minimum for cable.

I bought M Audio plugs, I like the tidy look.

OK, I was working on the basis that more strands = better? The unbranded ebay stuff I posted was chosen because it was the highest strand count at the 1.5mm CSA Lucid reccomended. If QED are only packing 79 strands into 2.5mmCSA, it would seem that my criteria is wrong?

What makes good speaker cable? WHY would you go for QED Classic as a minimum? Call me cynical, but cables have always felt like a POS con to me. ie, having made the decision to buy a product at a competitive price, you then get screwed on mahoosive margins, because it stands to reason that you need cable, and if you're in store picking up a box, are you really going to bother going somewhere else to save a few quid on cable?

Is it unreasonable to suggest that as a newbie to the fold, IF there's anything to this cable marlarkey, I'm probably not going to appreciate it?

I'm after high value, not low price. I have absolutely no issue spending more money on something if I'm actually going to notice it, but I'm not prepared to **** money away on a whim.

The Richer Sounds VIP deal on the Sony DH810/Yamaha NSP-285s for £300looks good. I gather no lifestyle-speakers are going to be the last word in fidelity, but given the cheapest I've seen the DH810 going for is £240, then the extra £60 looks good value for the speakers. It'd be worth that even if I went for the Bostons anyway, just to use them as an extra couple of speakers to put in the kitchen so I can hear what's going on on the very rare occasion I actually cook...

On that note, does the 'multi-room' function actually work, and is it an optional thing? ie, could I turn the extra speakers (or the multi room function) on and off when it isn't required?

 

[Kingy]

The colours are so you can mark positive from negative. Red = Positive (+ve), Black = Negative (-ve). You know that you wire red to red and black to black from the amp to the speakers, don't you?

No... What does that mean? I thought it might be as simple as CAT5 cabling, ie, one end in the computer/speaker, and the other end in the switch/amp... I kind of assumed that the different colours might be to help identify/differentiate cables going to different channels ie, red = front/left and black = back/right etc...

How much damage can I do if I get this wrong? Worst case is blowing up a speaker rather than blowing up me or the house right, there's no real power involved?

On this note, I read a classified ad that said the AV reciever had never been 'over-run'. What on earth would that mean? Can I not just leave it on for as long as I want it?

There's a huge amount of science in it, but a lot of it only applies to longer lengths or where you're daisy chaining three or four devices from source to display.

The cheapest of anything is rarely good value. With HDMI, meeting the spec could mean blowing it out of the water (a good thing), or just scraping a pass. Cables that only just meet the spec will be OK for direct source-to-display connection, but there's little leeway if something else is marginal too. Also, as electronics age they drift off spec. This affects HDMI devices just the same too. A extra pound or two spent now on something a bit thicker with better shielding might save you far more in money and time in the future.

See, I've never managed to keep a TV longer than 2 years (this is the second time I've been burgled , let alone a cable, so aging is something I'd worry about later unless I was chasing cables into the walls.

I get that thicker is better, and more shielding is good, but I've no idea how to actually quantify that. Unless I know what spec line to check out, I wouldn't know if I was paying £2 for a £10 cable, or £10 for a £2 cable, if that makes any sense? Obviously different companies have different costs/margins etc