Hive, Tado or Nest? - Ideally predictive heating and Alexa control of hot water?

NeilF · 28 Feb 2023 at 13:51

I currently use Netatmo which is fab for central heating. It adjusts start heating start times according to performance of house and starting temps etc to get your house to a temperature at the time you state. HOWEVER, it cannot control hot water heating on the boiler.

I'd like ideally to get a replacement that allows for predictive heating to get to a temp at the time you state, and also allows smart control of your hot water. Ideally so I can have an Alexa routine to say heat the hot water for 30 mins?

Do any of the big three (Hive, Tado or Nest) offer this?

Bluecube · 28 Feb 2023 at 13:57

Do you need/ plan to need smart radiator valves at any point? If so then that rules out Nest. Otherwise, Nest and Hive will do the job you require. I've no knowledge of Tado

NeilF · 28 Feb 2023 at 14:21

Bluecube said:
Do you need/ plan to need smart radiator valves at any point? If so then that rules out Nest. Otherwise, Nest and Hive will do the job you require. I've no knowledge of Tado

Don't think I need smart valves.

I didn't think Hive could do predictive heating? ie: Know it needs to start heating at 5:30 to get to 17 degrees by 6:30?

And as regards Alexa routines to turn on/off hot water heating, I thought Tado could do it, but thought Nest and Hive couldn't? You recon they can?

dlockers · 28 Feb 2023 at 14:29

Tado does OpenTherm, Hive doesn't. I use Hive and am a big advocate but the OpenTerm feature was a bit of a revelation (albeit tenuous).

NeilF said:
Don't think I need smart valves.

I didn't think Hive could do predictive heating? ie: Know it needs to start heating at 5:30 to get to 17 degrees by 6:30?

And as regards Alexa routines to turn on/off hot water heating, I thought Tado could do it, but thought Nest and Hive couldn't? You recon they can?

This sounds a bit snake oil. Just set what time you want the heating to come on and it'll work to get there --- the only clever bit of Hive is that it detects open windows on the smart TRVs iirc.

I've never used Alexa routines but Hive certainly works with Alexa. I can ask it to boost heating or hot water with no issues.

Bluecube · 28 Feb 2023 at 14:33

NeilF said:
Don't think I need smart valves.

I didn't think Hive could do predictive heating? ie: Know it needs to start heating at 5:30 to get to 17 degrees by 6:30?

And as regards Alexa routines to turn on/off hot water heating, I thought Tado could do it, but thought Nest and Hive couldn't? You recon they can?

Hive certainly does predictive heating but I use it with smart valves. Whether predictive heating will work with just a thermostat, I don't know. Hive can be used with Alexa to turn on the heating so I don't see any reason why it should be able to turn on the hot water on command.

@dLockers says that Hive detects open windows with smart valves. I should say that I've never noticed this actually working. I've gone in to a bathroom where the window is wide open and the radiator is blazing away...

NeilF · 28 Feb 2023 at 14:39

dLockers said:
Tado does OpenTherm, Hive doesn't. I use Hive and am a big advocate but the OpenTerm feature was a bit of a revelation (albeit tenuous).

Ta - Will look into.

dLockers said:
This sounds a bit snake oil. Just set what time you want the heating to come on and it'll work to get there --- the only clever bit of Hive is that it detects open windows on the smart TRVs iirc.

Predictive heating - as witnessed on my Netatmo - is fabulous:-

You define the time you want the temp to be reached, and it just does it. It learns the heating profile of your house (ie: how long it takes to get from X to Y), and in combination with current indoor/exterior temp, starts early enough to achieve the desired temp at the desired time. Means no matter the time of year, if you want the house at 18 degrees at 6:30am, it'll be there!
Also does smart stuff like knows the thermal inertia of your house. If I set my heating to 18 degrees it'll stat there typically with 0.1 of a degree. This incluses while heating the house up in the morning, turn the heating off BEFORE it gets to 18 degrees, because it knows the heating system will continue to warm after it's turned off.

^ All results in a very predictable and reliable outcome.

Hence me ideally wanting this behaviour on any replacement.

dLockers said:
I've never used Alexa routines but Hive certainly works with Alexa. I can ask it to boost heating or hot water with no issues.

Ah, so if you ask Hive (via Alexa) to boost your hot water and it'll turn it on the hot water tank heating for a defined time (eg: 30 or 60 mins)?

dlockers · 28 Feb 2023 at 14:40

^^ In summary I don't rely on any of the "smart" features. Even the TRVs themselves try and be too clever and managing a room to temperature.

I find it much easier to set a schedule on the main stat to a max temperature for the room, and then set a schedule either "ON" (32 degrees) or "OFF" (7 degrees) for the TRVs.

Too frustrating walking into the nursery when the heating has been on but it has decided to warm up the room slow and steady.

dlockers · 28 Feb 2023 at 14:41

NeilF said:
Ta - Will look into.

Predictive heating - as witnessed on my Netatmo - is fabulous:-

You define the time you want the temp to be reached, and it just does it. It learns the heating profile of your house (ie: how long it takes to get from X to Y), and in combination with current indoor/exterior temp, starts early enough to achieve the desired temp at the desired time. Means no matter the time of year, if you want the house at 18 degrees at 6:30am, it'll be there!

Also does smart stuff like knows the thermal inertia of your house. If I set my heating to 18 degrees it'll stat there typically with 0.1 of a degree. This incluses while heating the house up in the morning, turn the heating off BEFORE it gets to 18 degrees, because it knows the heating system will continue to warm after it's turned off.

^ All results in a very predictable and reliable outcome.

Hence me ideally wanting this behaviour on any replacement.

Ah, so if you ask Hive to boost your hot water and it'll turn it on the hot water tank heating for a defined time (eg: 30 or 60 mins)?

Sounds much better than anything I've ever experienced on Hive.

Yes - "Alexa boost the hot water" and it defaults to 30 mins IIRC.

dlockers · 28 Feb 2023 at 14:45

Simplest solution may be just to wire up a separate Hive mini for hot water only? Or whatever is cheapest.

NeilF · 3 Mar 2023 at 11:32

dLockers said:
Tado does OpenTherm, Hive doesn't. I use Hive and am a big advocate but the OpenTerm feature was a bit of a revelation (albeit tenuous).

This sounds a bit snake oil. Just set what time you want the heating to come on and it'll work to get there --- the only clever bit of Hive is that it detects open windows on the smart TRVs iirc.

I've never used Alexa routines but Hive certainly works with Alexa. I can ask it to boost heating or hot water with no issues.

Seems Tado removed OpenTherm from the UK version? - https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/14557/why-did-tado-remove-opentherm-from-uk-receivers

Also regards the feature I love on the Netatmo where it learns the performance of your house, so it turns off the heating early and pulses it on, to maintain a temperature, rather than over shooting then only turning the heating back on when you drop below it... Someone commented in that thread above Tado struggles to do that

- "And yes agree re algorithm. Doesn’t seem to learn room or house characteristics re insulation, rads etc and effect on overshoot etc"

iamtheoneneo · 3 Mar 2023 at 11:52

I have Tado, Obviously has Alexa control (pretty sure all of them do no?)
Main reason I got Tado was because it was the easiest to replace my former system with.

No issues with it, but i'm not doing anything crazy with it.

NeilF · 3 Mar 2023 at 12:41

iamtheoneneo said:
I have Tado, Obviously has Alexa control (pretty sure all of them do no?)
Main reason I got Tado was because it was the easiest to replace my former system with.

No issues with it, but i'm not doing anything crazy with it.

Thanks... I don't think Nest can turn water on/off via Alexa.

How do you find Tado at maintaining a constant temperature in the house? ie: If you set it to 18 degrees does it maintain it pretty well at that temp for hours on end, or does it oscillate up and down, only turning on when it drops below and only turning off when it's reached it?

jonneymendoza · 3 Mar 2023 at 20:52

NeilF said:
Thanks... I don't think Nest can turn water on/off via Alexa.

How do you find Tado at maintaining a constant temperature in the house? ie: If you set it to 18 degrees does it maintain it pretty well at that temp for hours on end, or does it oscillate up and down, only turning on when it drops below and only turning off when it's reached it?

Im also interested in Tado and on paper it looks perfect for my needs

danlightbulb · 4 Mar 2023 at 09:23

I was close to buying tado but haven't yet pushed the button.

There were two reasons, first the lack of opentherm and needing to buy extra kit to get that, and second that it relies on cloud service so if you lose internet you lose your timings.

However the third more recent reason is that I want to save money. Manually switching the heating on and off, and trying to keep it off as long as I can, is likely what will cost the least. I'm not sure if smart system will actually optimise for energy consumption.

GeX · 4 Mar 2023 at 10:09

If your boiler supports OpenTherm then Nest will let you control the (combi) water temperature. I can do this but haven’t adjusted it after initial setup tuning.
Nest also does predictive heating as you describe. Again, leaning on OpenTherm for proper control of the flow temperature it doesn’t overshoot. It will also take weather into consideration, upping the flow temperature if it’s cold outside.
Hive can’t do any of that, and it’s why I replaced it with Nest years ago.

NeilF · 4 Mar 2023 at 16:04

dLockers said:
Simplest solution may be just to wire up a separate Hive mini for hot water only? Or whatever is cheapest.

Given how good Netatmo is at heating, beginning to think to simply schedule hot water and allow Alexa routines to turn it on/off, this is the best solution. Question is can a separate unit control just hotwater (in this fashion) and which makes the most sense...

NeilF · 8 Mar 2023 at 09:25

Oh, slightly worrying news about Netatmo as regards their product support/lifetime?

From IFTTT:-

We are writing to let you know that the Netatmo Thermostat service will be removed from IFTTT on April 21st, 2023. Unfortunately, the Netatmo team is no longer available to support the integration.

We appreciate your understanding and apologize for the inconvenience.

You can try using Webhooks to recreate your Applets or explore the other Environment control & monitoring services that are available.

dlockers · 8 Mar 2023 at 09:28

That's a shame. It is one of the reasons I went Hive versus even Tado; at least it is backed by BG...

jonneymendoza · 8 Mar 2023 at 09:56

dLockers said:
That's a shame. It is one of the reasons I went Hive versus even Tado; at least it is backed by BG...

Why is that? Netatmo and Tado are different or are they the same tech/brand?

dlockers · 8 Mar 2023 at 09:58

jonneymendoza said:
Why is that? Netatmo and Tado are different or are they the same tech/brand?

I had never heard of Netatmo nor Tado, but knew BG had backed Hive. I've seen lots of the ecosystem type products go bust, so thought I'd be cautious. No idea where/how Tado is funded.