House prices rose 7.3% this year, average now almost £250k

[Semple]

Yes - you said £5k was nothing to someone who was looking at 500k houses. I can speak from experience and say £5k hurts me just as much as it hurts everyone else - time to gather it together or opportunity cost of spending it elsewhere.

5k is nothing on a 500k house, that's 1%! If an extra 1% of your property price is something that hurts then it's clearly beyond the realms of affordable.

Stop undermining peoples hard work because you haven't experienced it.

Oh the irony. I've not long purchased my first home (end 2019) with my partner at the age of 29. And yes we rented prior to that as well, so yes i have been through the hard work of having to save whilst renting. I know that we've been in the fortunate position of both earning good salaries, and we were able to make some use of the FTB SDLT exemption - even though the price of the house meant we had to pay a little more in SDLT fees.

Which is exactly why i was questioning HACO's numbers, i know what sort of salary you'd need to get a 450k mortgage on a 500k house.

It'd be a completely different story if HACO said he'd inherited 300k, along with a 50k deposit they've been saving, and therefore needed a 150k mortgage for the 500k house. 5k would be a sizeable amount of money.

 

[touch]

As for personal experience, I do know people who have been on the receiving end of a Section 8 for Refurbishment.

That should be pretty easy to argue against then. The government site says section 8 can only be used where tenants have broken their agreement:

Section 8 notice of seeking possession
To give your tenants notice using a Section 8, you must fill in a ‘Notice seeking possession of a property let on an assured tenancy or an assured agricultural occupancy’. Specify on the notice which terms of the tenancy they’ve broken.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

5k is nothing on a 500k house, that's 1%! If an extra 1% of your property price is something that hurts then it's clearly beyond the realms of affordable.

Oh the irony. I've not long purchased my first home (end 2019) with my partner at the age of 29. And yes we rented prior to that as well, so yes i have been through the hard work of having to save whilst renting. I know that we've been in the fortunate position of both earning good salaries, and we were able to make some use of the FTB SDLT exemption - even though the price of the house meant we had to pay a little more in SDLT fees.

Which is exactly why i was questioning HACO's numbers, i know what sort of salary you'd need to get a 450k mortgage on a 500k house.

It'd be a completely different story if HACO said he'd inherited 300k, along with a 50k deposit they've been saving, and therefore needed a 150k mortgage for the 500k house. 5k would be a sizeable amount of money.

Cash flow is different to balance sheet. £5k takes time to save up. That is time when house prices are increasing or the one you want is being bought by someone else.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Yeah basically this was my problem. I wanted the £500k house and the new car, expensive watch, expensive shoes and clothes, AND the £500k house. Luckily my salary kept pace with my lifestyle, but I really could have done a lot more and got into the £600k house OP mentioned. I just decided to sacrifice and go for a £450k first house.

He's been banging on about it's all about the future generations and how they will never be able to afford.

Yet he's a renter so obviously he hates landlords to him he's just handing over money every month to someone who's sitting on a gold throne.

We had a similar issue with a commercial property my family owns. The new lease holder wanted to pay cash for the rent so we would have to go there every week and he would need to hand over the cash physical. Was quite a lot of money to be doing it monthly.

I said that's not going to end well he wants to pay cash as it will be cash in hand he's using to pay the rent.

However as time goes on he will just see it as that he works all day long and then you come along and take a huge chunk of cash and you did nothing.

I advised to switch it to a standing order because then they don't physically hand it over and it's more meaningless to people as it's numbers on a screen.

We got to the crux of his hate anyway and why he keeps posting new threads on the same topic every 2 months. He's a renter so to him all landlords are the devil.

I think we can close this thread now as you cannot have a sensible debate with a renter. They just want all landlords to sell up and give their homes away to renters for free.

 

[FoxEye]

That should be pretty easy to argue against then. The government site says section 8 can only be used where tenants have broken their agreement:

No that's not correct (I mean you're reading it wrong).

*Some* clauses in Section 8 are for tenant misconduct. Not all of them.

Section 8 includes clauses for repossession on the grounds I listed, which require NO tenant misconduct.

 

[FoxEye]

I think we can close this thread now as you cannot have a sensible debate with a renter. They just want all landlords to sell up and give their homes away to renters for free.

Of course because we're all communists, you already said this many times

P.S. Didn't you inherit your entire portfolio from your family? I seem to remember you saying this before. Must be nice to have that sort of inherited wealth huh.

 

[Vanilla]

OK there's a couple in Section 8 just for starters.

14 days notice if: the landlord wants to carry out some refurb work;
the landlord wants (or claims to want) to occupy the house (for any length of time, before renting it out again...)

Then there's Section 21 which allows eviction in 6 months for no specified reason (ie the landlord doesn't need a reason).

Section 8 also provides grounds for termination if the landlord wants to claim that the tenant is causing unnecessary wear and tear, or being "antisocial" and a whole number of other things.

A landlord has a *lot* of tools at his disposal to get rid of tenants. Since just wanting to make some alterations is enough under Section 8 to get the tenant out in two weeks, it's not exactly hard.

Refurbishment requires two months notice. Anti-social and wear and tear are discretional reasons which mean you have to PROVE your case. You can’t just say ‘oh that couch looks a bit rough you’re out’.

Given this the two weeks wouldn’t be applicable as it has to go before a judge..

https://landlordlawblog.co.uk/2016/01/20/grounds-for-eviction-mandatory-and-discretionary-grounds/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_notice

Section 8 with two weeks notice can only be applied for the following reasons;

Mandatory reasons:

1.) Holiday Let. Unlikely as you’re not renting an Airbnb.
2.) Property tied to an educational institution. Unlikely.
3.) Conviction for serious offence. Sounds reasonable.
4.) Rent arrears. Reasonable.

Discretionary reasons (Need proof).

5.) Rent arrears. Reasonable (Discretionary, court must decide)
6.) Regular failure to pay rent. Reasonable (Discretionary, court must decide)
7.) Breach of tenancy agreement. Reasonable (Discretionary, court must decide)
8.) Neglect of property. Reasonable (Discretionary, court must decide)
9.) Poor treatment of furnishings (Discretionary, court must decide)
10.) False Statements (Discretionary, court must decide)


Section 21 is not valid if you have a fixed term contract.

https://www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/section-21-notice-to-quit/

“If you’re renting on a fixed term tenancy, section 21 must respect the fixed term and end no sooner than the last day of that term.”


“Section 21 notices have to give at least two months notice to the tenant and must not end at the end of the fixed term. So if you serve it one month into a six month AST it will be five months long. If it is served during the final month, it will be two months long.”

https://landlordlawblog.co.uk/2010/08/13/urban-myth-you-cant-serve-a-section-21-notice-during-the-fixed-term/#:~:text=Section 21 notices – the rules,will be two months long.

 

[krooton]

Of course because we're all communists, you already said this many times

P.S. Didn't you inherit your entire portfolio from your family? I seem to remember you saying this before. Must be nice to have that sort of inherited wealth huh.

If he did, I'm guessing it was after he made this post?

it should be quite simple. nobody is allowed to buy a home in the UK unless you are going to be living in it yourself. nobody is allowed to own more than 1 residential properties unless under special circumstances like parents die and you end up inheriting a property. however you need to sell and bring back down to 1 within say 2 years. houses should be there for people to live in not make money from. all landlords would need to effectively adapt and move onto commercial properties or other lines of business which would be good for UK economy.

only the council should be allowed to rent out residential property. therefore they could stop serial abusers of the system in their tracks. don't pay the cheap rent to the council and lets face it will be much cheaper than private. good luck getting another property from us until you pay back what is owed. you can now go live in a shelter or on the streets.

this will never happen though. it's a pipe dream. you do realise a lot of ex MP's own property companies? a lot of current MP's also as well as their families? David Cameron's father in law is worth billions for instance. the property market will never be fixed. it needs drastic fixes for it to bring prices down.

 

[FoxEye]

@Vanilla You've missed some.

Two weeks notice is 100% applicable if you use the Section 8 provision for landlord re-taking possession to occupy.

Also if there is a "break clause" in the contract you can apply Section 21 to a fixed term contract AFAIK.

The devil is in the details, but as I already said, I'm sure we all know someone who has been evicted at short notice. It happens.

 

[Vanilla]

@Vanilla You've missed some.

Two weeks notice is 100% applicable if you use the Section 8 provision for landlord re-taking possession to occupy.

No, see the link. This is ground number 1 - it requires at least two months notice.

Also if there is a "break clause" in the contract you can apply Section 21 to a fixed term contract AFAIK.

A break clause works both ways. Technically a break clause IS the end of the contract. It's for the tenant and the landlord. I don't have them in my contracts because, as a renter I wanted long term security and as a landlord I want...long term security!

The devil is in the details, but as I already said, I'm sure we all know someone who has been evicted at short notice. It happens.

Oh the irony. You've been wrong on every point so far.

 

[Vanilla]

Also in addition to it being at least two months it's not as simple as saying 'I want to move in here'

"Ground 1: landlord taking property as their own home

Used when the landlord wants to live in the property as a permanent home. It is only permitted when the landlord has already lived in it as their main home or they, or their spouse require it to live in as his or her main home.

Evidence of this may be required, together with evidence that the landlord intends to leave their current home."

 

[Pudney]

The devil is in the details, but as I already said, I'm sure we all know someone who has been evicted at short notice. It happens.

I don't know anyone who's ever been evicted on short notice. All the evictions I've heard about have taken several months to enact and enforce with plenty of warnings preceding it.

 

[Vanilla]

I don't know anyone who's ever been evicted on short notice. All the evictions I've heard about have taken several months to enact and enforce with plenty of warnings preceding it.

I literally know no one who has been evicted. I've never been evicted or had to evict. The vast, vast majority of the rental market is zero drama, people living, everyone happy.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

You guys shouldn't indulge these off-topic posters who are making up tangential points with zero fact or experience in the matter. Happened in the Motors section too where OP was at fault but it became an "Eastern Europeans don't have insurance" type discussion which then ended up in a discussion around cloned plates.

 

[jaybee]

The thing with renting that doesn't seem to be discussed much here, is that overwhelming feeling of living in a house that you are restricted in and can't make it how you want it. You don't want to invest time in fixing that door/window/floor/wall/tap because it's not your house (or your responsibility for a lot of problems) and ultimately anything you put into it, could be swept out from under your feet at a moments notice. That's why people want to own really, to make it theirs and know that if they spend weeks making a room nicely decorated or put time into something, it is worth it as they get to experience any improvements. Simple things like wall mounting a TV can become a headache with some rentals.

Not many people enjoy moving, especially not with a larger family. I have known people who have had to move more than 3 times in a year, with kids, through no fault of their own.

 

[FoxEye]

No, see the link. This is ground number 1 - it requires at least two months notice.

A break clause works both ways. Technically a break clause IS the end of the contract. It's for the tenant and the landlord. I don't have them in my contracts because, as a renter I wanted long term security and as a landlord I want...long term security!

Oh the irony. You've been wrong on every point so far.

The fact remains that there is no such thing as long-term security in rental.

You can still use Section 8 to retake possession on grounds of "refurbishment" with only two months notice, regardless of how many years are on your contract.

I thought it was two weeks for landlord returning to occupy the property but happy to concede that might be two months.

In any case, if you have a 5 year contract, or two year, or 10 year... it's not worth the paper it's written on given how easily the landlord can get you out with two months notice.

This is not what I call "security dwelling". Two months to uproot yourself completely and find somewhere else to live.

Especially if you thought you had a long term contract and had found a job, enrolled your kids in school, etc.

And no, I disagree that the landlord values long term stability. If rent prices rocket and the landlord now sees he can charge 1.5x what he's currently charging, he takes any and all action necessary to get his rent in line with the maximum the market will bear.

And then in some cases will mean getting the existing tenants out, in order to push that rent up.

None of this is theoretical. I've seen it, spoken to people who have experienced it. Being a tenant is brutal. Zero security, lots of risk, needing to get out at short notice.

And all of that whilst paying much, much more than you would for a mortgage, if you could get one.

I know the alternative is "communism", but I despise the idea of leaving housing to purely market forces. I really do.

 

[jaybee]

The term property "ladder" assumes the more traditional method of owning property which is to buy at an early age as a couple a small 1 bed flat or such low value property, and then to gradually move "up the ladder" over time as your family size and hopefully earnings grow too, buying larger, more valuable property. This is an outdated term for a lot of people as the age of FTBers climbs and can mean they buy one house and one house only in their life.

In this day and age, you have people trying to buy their first house at prices that others - like in this thread - laugh at and claim they are being stupid trying to afford a first house at such prices. Some of these people have full grown families of multiple children and have been renting for 10-20 years trying to buy and have not been able to. A 1 bed flat is not going to cut it. Yes they need 4 bed houses and this is not entitlement or greed. There is a requirement for their family size. A lot indeed will have to look at houses for 400-500k in the south east to buy a first house yes. It's not madness. This is how it is. Laugh it up all you want and tell them to move to Glasgow, I'm sure that will make them feel better.

 

[Vanilla]

The thing with renting that doesn't seem to be discussed much here, is that over whelming feeling of living in a house that you are restricted in and can't make it how you want it. You don't want to invest time in fixing that door/window/floor/wall/tap because it's not your house (or your responsibility for a lot of problems) and ultimately anything you put into it, could be swept out from under your feet at a moments notice. That's why people want to own really, to make it theirs and know that if they spend weeks making a room nicely decorated or put time into something, it is worth it as they get to experience any improvements. Simple things like wall mounting a TV can become a headache with some rentals.

Not many people enjoy moving, especially not with a larger family. I have known people who have had to move more than 3 times in a year, with kids, through no fault of their own.

This is a completely normal, human, feeling. I never felt home when renting, it always felt like a stop gap...but not because I felt at risk of being evicted but because I always had the goal of owning my own home and if that is in your head you're always on the journey, not at the destination. I always had long contracts, decent landlords who were reactive and just normal people.

 

[FoxEye]

The thing with renting that doesn't seem to be discussed much here, is that over whelming feeling of living in a house that you are restricted in and can't make it how you want it. You don't want to invest time in fixing that door/window/floor/wall/tap because it's not your house (or your responsibility for a lot of problems) and ultimately anything you put into it, could be swept out from under your feet at a moments notice. That's why people want to own really, to make it theirs and know that if they spend weeks making a room nicely decorated or put time into something, it is worth it as they get to experience any improvements. Simple things like wall mounting a TV can become a headache with some rentals.

Not many people enjoy moving, especially not with a larger family. I have known people who have had to move more than 3 times in a year, with kids, through no fault of their own.

Yeah it's common to have "no pets" clauses and a host of other restrictions. One of our neighbours has been told they aren't allowed to do anything with the garden except cut the grass. They've been told by the landlord not to plant anything or take anything out.

And they hope to live in that house for years to come. Yet they will never be able to do any gardening. Sad.

 

[FoxEye]

This is a completely normal, human, feeling. I never felt home when renting, it always felt like a stop gap...but not because I felt at risk of being evicted but because I always had the goal of owning my own home and if that is in your head you're always on the journey, not at the destination. I always had long contracts, decent landlords who were reactive and just normal people.

Perhaps you've been lucky.

I probably don't need to remind you that ministers recently* found 1/3 of rental housing was not up to "minimum habitable standard".

I'll find a link to the news story at some point. It was big news.

*Might have been up to a year ago now.