House prices rose 7.3% this year, average now almost £250k

[HACO]

Should we also have a higher tax on saved income then? By definition if it’s saved it’s not actually required, let others benefit?

and at what point would the wealth tax kick in?

Property tax? No lower limit, like other countries. Wealth tax? At let's say, £10 million net worth and more.

Remember that 50% of land in England is owned by 2500 people.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/17/who-owns-england-thousand-secret-landowners-author

HACO, now you have done house prices and council tax, can you move onto childcare? I am going to have to pay £1500/mo for 4 days a week

I would 100% support universal childcare like Scandinavian countries do. It's a disgrace that childcare is so expensive in this country. I would happily pay more tax to fund education and childcare. But instead our taxes go to the pockets of pensioners and landlords.

Nah, screw that, I was with you on controlling people hoovering up properties, and BTL magnates and foreign investors, but we already paid £30k in stamp duty when we bought our house 2 years ago, pay inflated council tax even though we get reduced council services, have to pay the estate management company £60 a month, and now with your proposal we need to stump up another £250 a month just because?

You definitely seem to be bitter and twisted over home-ownership.

The property tax would replace council tax, and I'm bitter & twisted because I want us to learn from other OECD countries who manage their housing situation better than we do? Call me bitter and twisted. I'd say the attitude in this country over home ownership (which is a fundamentalist religion at this point, we consider it sacred) is twisted. Any policy that might not benefit the homeowner class and might slow down the ever-increasing house prices is considered blasphemy, even though these are normal and exist in dozens and dozens of other developed countries, and very successfully so.

 

[Pudney]

Remember that 50% of land in England is owned by 2500 people.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/17/who-owns-england-thousand-secret-landowners-author

That's a bit of a nonsense soundbite though isn't? Provocative, but when you think about it not that useful. Not sure what people would do with those reservoirs. Or national parks and forests, I mean the National Trust and Woodland Trust own 2% of England, damned nature lovers! Pretty sure farmers would be upset if we were to distribute their land for housing, not sure crops and animal rearing would be quite so productive.

 

[dowie]

While it's true that some countries crapped their pure WEALTH tax, you ignored the PROPERTY tax part of it, which is the main subject here. All OECD countries have PROPERTY TAXES that the owner pays. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, except the UK.

No, you specifically said wealth tax and I addressed that aspect - the UK has a property tax too - it is commonly called council tax!

Or did you seriously claim that these countries have scrapped their PROPERTY taxes as well? If so, you're just wrong.

You're arguing with yourself there - you claimed they had a wealth tax, you're wrong. A general wealth tax and a property tax are different things.

Every other OECD country has property tax based on the value of the property that the owner pays. If they all can manage administering it, so can we.

This is also false - as per your wealth tax claim. In Germany the tenants can pay it, in Spain it varies, in cases where the landlord pays it then it's a bit moot as the rent reflects that.

It would probably be better to argue for the benefits of it tbh... rather than trying to make an argument on the basis of other countries do it therefore it must be good.

 

[dowie]

That's a bit of a nonsense soundbite though isn't? Provocative, but when you think about it not that useful. Not sure what people would do with those reservoirs. Or national parks and forests, I mean the National Trust and Woodland Trust own 2% of England, damned nature lovers! Pretty sure farmers would be upset if we were to distribute their land for housing, not sure crops and animal rearing would be quite so productive.

That has been pointed out to him a few days ago, yet here he is making the same claims all over again - the biggest landowners in the UK unsurprisingly are the likes of the forestry commission, the MOD, the crown, the national trust etc...

 

[Pudney]

That has been pointed out to him a few days ago, yet here he is making the same claims all over again - the biggest landowners in the UK unsurprisingly are the likes of the forestry commission, the MOD, the crown, the national trust etc...

The capitalist swine!

 

[HACO]

No, you specifically said wealth tax and I addressed that aspect - the UK has a property tax too - it is commonly called council tax!

No. This is what I said: In fact, UK is the only OECD country that doesn't have some form of an annual property tax for the property owner.

Go back and see it. I clearly said PROPERTY. You refuted something I never claimed.

Council tax is a residency tax, not a property tax. The same is true of business rates. They are paid by occupiers, not owners.

You're arguing with yourself there - you claimed they had a wealth tax, you're wrong. A general wealth tax and a property tax are different things.

No, YOU are arguing with yourself here. I said property tax, you pretended I said wealth and refuted your own fantasies.

This is also false - as per your wealth tax claim. In Germany the tenants can pay it, in Spain it varies, in cases where the landlord pays it then it's a bit moot as the rent reflects that.

Nope, in Germany owners are responsible.

It would probably be better to argue for the benefits of it tbh... rather than trying to make an argument on the basis of other countries do it therefore it must be good.

I already have, several times.

 

[HACO]

That has been pointed out to him a few days ago, yet here he is making the same claims all over again - the biggest landowners in the UK unsurprisingly are the likes of the forestry commission, the MOD, the crown, the national trust etc...

The capitalist swine!

The actual study reporting on it was discussed in the Parliament as well. But you're right, it's communism to notice and discuss these things.

 

[FoxEye]

To the person(s) saying it's just a problem of wages...

Surely if wages go up across the board or minimum wage goes up, then rents simply increase proportionately?

The goal of any landlord is to charge the maximum the market will bear, and if average wage or nat. min. wage start rising, landlords will see that as an opportunity to increase the rent.

The only way anybody ever benefits from a wage increase is if it puts you ahead relative to others.

 

[dowie]

No. This is what I said: In fact, UK is the only OECD country that doesn't have some form of an annual property tax for the property owner.

Go back and see it. I clearly said PROPERTY. You refuted something I never claimed.

Council tax is a residency tax, not a property tax. The same is true of business rates. They are paid by occupiers, not owners.

Nope, I've been quite specific about what I've refuted, you seem to be deliberately muddling things because you've made some dodgy claims.

Council tax literally is a form of property tax, whether the owner or the occupier is liable varies in OECD countries, in some cases there are separate taxes for each too.

No, YOU are arguing with yourself here. I said property tax, you pretended I said wealth and refuted your own fantasies.

Nope, you are, if I'm wrong then quote where I claimed those countries scraped property taxes? I was quite specific I pointed out they'd scrapped wealth tax I included a link to back up my claim and I can literally quote you referring to wealth taxes (as I have done already) here - see in bold:

In this country, yes that's how it works. Not everywhere. E.g. Sweden, France, Italy, Norway, Switzerland, etc have different forms of wealth taxes. [...]
We're really unique that we don't tax wealth. Every other OECD country does it.

Why are you trying to deny that when I can literally quote you there?

Now go ahead - quote the argument you seem to think I've made? Or go back and read more carefully in future.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See also for example this latest claim - you've again been sloppy and not read carefully - this is a basic reading comprehension issue with you and it's quite tiresome if you persist in doing this - lets break this down.

Note the innermost quote below - you refer to who pays the property tax, this isn't necessarily correct.

Now note the quote from my post - I point out that in Germany the tenants can pay it. That isn't a claim that they always will but it can be passed onto them to pay it.

Now note your latest response, you reply with a negative but then say something that doesn't actually negate what I just pointed out to you - who is responsible for the tax is not necessarily the same as who pays it. The owner is responsible for the tax, that doesn't negate that they can pass on the tax to their tenants - see the next quote and link below:

Every other OECD country has property tax based on the value of the property that the owner pays. If they all can manage administering it, so can we.

This is also false - as per your wealth tax claim. In Germany the tenants can pay it, in Spain it varies, in cases where the landlord pays it then it's a bit moot as the rent reflects that.

Nope, in Germany owners are responsible.

https://www.thelocal.de/20191018/wh...erman-property-tax-reform-that-affects-us-all

What exactly is the Grundsteuer and do I have to pay it?

It’s the tax on the ownership of land and buildings. And almost all of us pay it, either directly or indirectly. The tax is levied on everyone who owns a property. But even if you are a tenant, you still probably pay, as landlords almost always pass the cost onto tenants in the form of Nebenkosten (supplementary costs) in their contract.

 

[Pudney]

The actual study reporting on it was discussed in the Parliament as well. But you're right, it's communism to notice and discuss these things.

I am debating it by pointing out the gaping holes in your interpretation of it. But sure, go ahead and ignore those massive gaping holes that really don't help you.

 

[neocon]

How would a hypothetical wealth/property tax work in the UK?

Sounds awful to be honest. I mean think about someone who's worked hard to pay off their mortgage and then retired. Then they get slapped with a tax they hadn't planned for. What are supposed to do, move to Norfolk?

 

[Simon]

Wow he’s still going. And now he’s suggesting people should borrow money to pay taxes??

And just lol at suggesting someone should £3m in tax on £150m of property. Ah yes they can borrow to pay tax bills. That will end well.

you realise that sort of taxation is impossible and you complain about rents being too high? What do you think is going to happen if property tax does come in?

 

[Simon]

. Generally speaking though, someone currently paying £1500pcm in London for a 2-bed flat that's worth £750k would not be getting a £350pcm rent increase as a result of this. Most of that cost will be absorbed by the landlord.

Or he sells it an you have to find somewhere else to live

 

[platinum87]

To the person(s) saying it's just a problem of wages...

Surely if wages go up across the board or minimum wage goes up, then rents simply increase proportionately?

The goal of any landlord is to charge the maximum the market will bear, and if average wage or nat. min. wage start rising, landlords will see that as an opportunity to increase the rent.

The only way anybody ever benefits from a wage increase is if it puts you ahead relative to others.

Your wages is your value, they should increase as you become more valuable, or rare.

If you force wages to increase, the relative value does not increase, and what happens is that the value of the currency will decrease.

As minimum wage is just minimum, what happens is, an erosion of the middle classes, i.e. more and more are on minimum, while others are the same.

Now clearly, you can understand that if we take everyone who is working @ minimum wage in the UK, that there are some amazing workers, and some useless ones.

So same job, different pay, is something that must be allowed to occur. Sure the company will want to pay you less, you apply for another job etc etc, that's how it works

Now when i was in secondary school, probably age 13 i remember watching some video.

The video depicted 2 guys working the same job, the job was smashing rocks.

One guy was small, and the other was huge.

The huge guy obviously, is much stronger and able to crush double the rocks, he is paid double.

But apparently, they should be paid the same.

This is the sort of thinking that has infected the world

 

[Scam]

The real solution is fixing the wage issue.

No. Wage deflation is not an issue, housing inflation is. Why don't you read something like Shelters report (from 2013!) that shows quite clearly out of step housing inflation is compared to almost everything else - Food for thought: applying house price inflation to grocery prices.

How would a hypothetical wealth/property tax work in the UK?

Sounds awful to be honest. I mean think about someone who's worked hard to pay off their mortgage and then retired. Then they get slapped with a tax they hadn't planned for. What are supposed to do, move to Norfolk?

You're thinking too short-term. Yes, it will be difficult to implement but there are people more clever than you or I who's job it is to come up with these things. In your example, does said person pay council tax? Because it would be a similar cost that replaces council tax so there should be no major shock.

In the long term, it would stop the whole country obsessing over the price of their house going up because it would mean more property tax to pay every year. That's the point. It will help control house prices and we wouldn't be in the situation we're in with unaffordable homes.

And I don't buy this argument about pensioners having to move out of certain areas because it's too expensive either. You know what, sod 'em. All the boomers tell us millennials we're acting entitled by wanting to buy a 2 bedroom flat in a nice area whilst they sit in huge houses thinking they're completely entitled to do so, just because they're old enough to have bought when it was 3 times their salary. If an area is too expensive for a 30-40yo couple in decent careers to buy their first property, then you know what - it's too expensive for a couple of pensioners too. Tough.

 

[neocon]

No. Wage deflation is not an issue, housing inflation is. Why don't you read something like Shelters report (from 2013!) that shows quite clearly out of step housing inflation is compared to almost everything else - Food for thought: applying house price inflation to grocery prices.


You're thinking too short-term. Yes, it will be difficult to implement but there are people more clever than you or I who's job it is to come up with these things. In your example, does said person pay council tax? Because it would be a similar cost that replaces council tax so there should be no major shock.

In the long term, it would stop the whole country obsessing over the price of their house going up because it would mean more property tax to pay every year. That's the point. It will help control house prices and we wouldn't be in the situation we're in with unaffordable homes.

And I don't buy this argument about pensioners having to move out of certain areas because it's too expensive either. You know what, sod 'em. All the boomers tell us millennials we're acting entitled by wanting to buy a 2 bedroom flat in a nice area whilst they sit in huge houses thinking they're completely entitled to do so, just because they're old enough to have bought when it was 3 times their salary. If an area is too expensive for a 30-40yo couple in decent careers to buy their first property, then you know what - it's too expensive for a couple of pensioners too. Tough.

But what about people with huge mortgages for there expensive houses in nice areas? In fact anyone with a large mortgage is going to be in trouble aren't they if the value of their property goes down or they have to pay additional taxes they hadn't planned for.

My parents had to work their way up the ladder from a flat and eventually to a nice house. You can't just expect to be able to move into a nice area just because both people have good careers, they would still have to climb the ladder.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

No. Wage deflation is not an issue, housing inflation is. Why don't you read something like Shelters report (from 2013!) that shows quite clearly out of step housing inflation is compared to almost everything else - Food for thought: applying house price inflation to grocery prices.


You're thinking too short-term. Yes, it will be difficult to implement but there are people more clever than you or I who's job it is to come up with these things. In your example, does said person pay council tax? Because it would be a similar cost that replaces council tax so there should be no major shock.

In the long term, it would stop the whole country obsessing over the price of their house going up because it would mean more property tax to pay every year. That's the point. It will help control house prices and we wouldn't be in the situation we're in with unaffordable homes.

And I don't buy this argument about pensioners having to move out of certain areas because it's too expensive either. You know what, sod 'em. All the boomers tell us millennials we're acting entitled by wanting to buy a 2 bedroom flat in a nice area whilst they sit in huge houses thinking they're completely entitled to do so, just because they're old enough to have bought when it was 3 times their salary. If an area is too expensive for a 30-40yo couple in decent careers to buy their first property, then you know what - it's too expensive for a couple of pensioners too. Tough.

Make the country even more expensive to live in gives me more reasons for leaving tbh.

I'd like to see how much tax the government rakes in when people start moving abroad permanently.

 

[krooton]

BRB just going to willingly inflict some structural damage on my house, making it unsellable due to surveyance laws, and thus worth £0.

Big brain tax avoidance

 

[Scam]

But what about people with huge mortgages for there expensive houses in nice areas? In fact anyone with a large mortgage is going to be in trouble aren't they if the value of their property goes down or they have to pay additional taxes they hadn't planned for.

Perhaps they shouldn't have taken out such a large mortgage then? lol. People don't bat an eyelid when a car loses half it's value the second you drive it off the forecourt, why are we so obsessed with houses doing the opposite all the time? I'm not denying in the short term it'd be a kicker for some people in certain situations, but if it's for the greater good then so be it. I don't think it'd be more expensive for most people, for what it's worth.

My parents had to work their way up the ladder from a flat and eventually to a nice house. You can't just expect to be able to move into a nice area just because both people have good careers, they would still have to climb the ladder.

Why is it impossible to have a conversation about house prices without someone saying the fateful line "had to work hard". lol you think everyone nowadays isn't working hard? Your parents probably bought their first flat when it was 3x their salary. No offence but big ****ing woop!! Like I said, all I'm pointing out is that it should be perfectly reasonable for a 30-40yo couple in good, reasonably well paid, secure jobs to be able to afford a flat in a nice area. I don't mean zone 1 London either. The problem is, that is not happening right now.

Make the country even more expensive to live in gives me more reasons for leaving tbh.

Well, as mentioned a property tax would help control house prices so it would eventually make it cheaper to live but ok...

 

[neocon]

Make the country even more expensive to live in gives me more reasons for leaving tbh.

I'd like to see how much tax the government rakes in when people start moving abroad permanently.

The fact that stamp duty was cut really tells you everything, the government doesn't want prices to free fall.