House prices rose 7.3% this year, average now almost £250k

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That's what would effectively happen. It would be set at a current level where it would be similar to the council tax it replaced but as property prices increase then obviously the tax based on their value would increase too.

If it became law, everyone would be required to pay. Even those who have "made their calculation" before it was introduced.

Which is why, IF it is also going to be used in place of new Stamp Duty charges as well, people who recently bought and had to pay SDLT should get some sort of a rebate, as they paid those taxes up front so to speak.

If you got a stamp duty holiday, or paid SDLT more than x years ago, you just move on to the new process or whatever, but recent buyers can get pretty badly stung if there isn't some sort of phased balancing.
 
One option is to sell up and move to Thailand or somewhere like the that when the time comes.

There's going to be one heck of a lot of old people by 2050 (providing we beat covid)
 
So we have two identical houses on the street. One house is fully owned and there's no mortgage, and the other house as a 90% mortgage.

Will the two owners pay the same property tax under the new system?

This is the big flaw in the system. The owner without a mortgage will be deemed a lot wealthier than the one who currently has a 90% mortgage to pay off.

A better system would be to tax peoples net wealth regardless of income or what assets they own. You'd have to divulge at the end of the tax year what your net wealth is (or even better have a system that tracks it all) and you then get presented with a tax bill. You could probably do away with income tax, VAT, council tax etc.

Yes you'd probably get people who would waste their income on things that couldn't be counted towards net wealth (drugs/beer/hookers) but majority of people would spend on some form of an asset - property/cars/collectables etc.

Both are assets and are valued the same so the tax is the same. How you purchase the asset doesn't change it's value.

But the owner with the mortgage doesn't own the asset, - well actually he owns 10% of it.
 
This is the big flaw in the system. The owner without a mortgage will be deemed a lot wealthier than the one who currently has a 90% mortgage to pay off.

A better system would be to tax peoples net wealth regardless of income or what assets they own. You'd have to divulge at the end of the tax year what your net wealth is (or even better have a system that tracks it all) and you then get presented with a tax bill. You could probably do away with income tax, VAT, council tax etc.

And if the owner who has paid off there mortgage is now retired with very small income and the owner paying the mortgage has a decent income. At the end of the year the retired owner will be liable for about 10 times as much tax because their net worth is 10 times more?

I agree that a property tax system wouldn't be a one-size-fits all and would need some fiddling to get it right, but your system seems much worse.
 
One option is to sell up and move to Thailand or somewhere like the that when the time comes.

There's going to be one heck of a lot of old people by 2050 (providing we beat covid)

I've wondered about this.
Just sell up. Move away. Teach English. Feel like a king somewhere cheap.
 
But the owner with the mortgage doesn't own the asset, - well actually he owns 10% of it.

They own the asset - they benefit from 100% of the capital appreciation. For example, if you buy a house (£200k, £150k mortgage), your mortgage doesn't increase if the value increases to £300k. Your asset is just collateral against a loan, your mortgage.

This is the big flaw in the system. The owner without a mortgage will be deemed a lot wealthier than the one who currently has a 90% mortgage to pay off.

A better system would be to tax peoples net wealth regardless of income or what assets they own. You'd have to divulge at the end of the tax year what your net wealth is (or even better have a system that tracks it all) and you then get presented with a tax bill. You could probably do away with income tax, VAT, council tax etc.

There was a one-time wealth tax proposal a month or so ago, a 5% tax on assets above £500,000, payable over 5 years, so 1% per year for 5 years. That tax was estimated to raise £260 billion over 5 years, to pay for Covid costs. It seemed to go nowhere.

I'm in the minority here in that I do support a wealth tax (in addition to property tax), but a pure wealth tax shouldn't kick in at £500k, that's too low. Maybe at £10m or more, at a higher percentage to raise the same amount of money. The Bernie Sanders wealth tax proposal in the US for example would have kicked in at $32m net worth or more, but was at 2% per year instead of 1%, and was intended to be permanent.
 
I've had a little look at numbers.

If I pay into my private pension at rate I do now.
And my house rises with inflation
And I pay it off by retirement.

I think I could retire on 30k. Without releasing equity if the state pension stays same.

But 30 won't be worth much then. So even saving a lot. On an above average wage I'll barely have enough to keep up with any unexpected events.
Let's say state pension drops away rapidly. That 30k will also come down rapidly.

I'm not a low earner. That's the scary bit about the future. I'll manage. But it won't be like my parents retirement. Off on cruises etc.

It's a time bomb

Professional workers of the boomer generation usually got a final salary defined benefit pension, those were some of the best in the entire world. And to a large degree, they were unsustainable.

I do save 25% of my gross income into my pension, that's the only way I can be sure to have a reasonable retirement. I don't expect the state pension or the NHS to be around in 30+ years when I retire (either completely gone or means-tested), so I'm not counting on them at all and I know I can only rely on myself.
 
They own the asset - they benefit from 100% of the capital appreciation. For example, if you buy a house (£200k, £150k mortgage), your mortgage doesn't increase if the value increases to £300k. Your asset is just collateral against a loan, your mortgage.



There was a one-time wealth tax proposal a month or so ago, a 5% tax on assets above £500,000, payable over 5 years, so 1% per year for 5 years. That tax was estimated to raise £260 billion over 5 years, to pay for Covid costs. It seemed to go nowhere.

I'm in the minority here in that I do support a wealth tax (in addition to property tax), but a pure wealth tax shouldn't kick in at £500k, that's too low. Maybe at £10m or more, at a higher percentage to raise the same amount of money. The Bernie Sanders wealth tax proposal in the US for example would have kicked in at $32m net worth or more, but was at 2% per year instead of 1%, and was intended to be permanent.
Isn't there an assumption there that the asset will appreciate?
 
Professional workers of the boomer generation usually got a final salary defined benefit pension, those were some of the best in the entire world. And to a large degree, they were unsustainable.

I do save 25% of my gross income into my pension, that's the only way I can be sure to have a reasonable retirement. I don't expect the state pension or the NHS to be around in 30+ years when I retire (either completely gone or means-tested), so I'm not counting on them at all and I know I can only rely on myself.

I also do not expect the NHS to be around and I also expect state pension to be non existent.

And yes. My step dad retired on my current salary. Crazy. What a time to be alive.

I will have to work, probably near to the grave. Just hoping not having kids can give me a bit of a retirement.


Boomer generation definitely had it good in terms of retirement assets. Can't get away from that
 
A better system would be to tax peoples net wealth regardless of income or what assets they own. You'd have to divulge at the end of the tax year what your net wealth is (or even better have a system that tracks it all) and you then get presented with a tax bill. You could probably do away with income tax, VAT, council tax etc.

That's a terrible system and involves all sorts of subjective valuation, people having to pay an annual fee just to hang onto things they own etc...

Income is taxed on an ongoing basis, assets are taxed when they are transferred and/or when gains are realised as a result of them being transferred or sold.

Essentially you'd want to tax someone more simply because they bought a modest house in an ordinary area but it became popular and their neighbours houses have all risen in value. They've earned nothing extra personally but now they might need to sell their home or take out an additional mortgage on it to pay some annual tax you've decided they should owe.

So John Smith in his 20s manages to buy a house in say New Cross, he takes a risk and buys it in the 90s when it was cheap.. John is now in his 50s... New Cross has become more expensive, John's house is in theory worth 800k, his neighbours are now bankers and lawyers etc... John has done absolutely nothing himself other than just live in the house he bought decades ago but because his neighbours have bought/sold houses nearby for increasingly higher amounts you think John should be liable for some extra tax....

So you tax John.. he can't very easily afford it so he takes out a new mortgage on his (now 800k house), he has to take out quite a chunk to pay over the next 10 years or so.... now lets say New Cross becomes less popular post-pandemic... people move away, house prices now fall... Johns house is now worth only 300k... but he's now got a huge mortgage on the thing and he's due to retire...

At no point did John actually realise any huge gain, he was taxed for something he owned based on it being worth a high amount at one point before falling in value, at no point did he really benefit from that rise in value as he never sold it.

We should tax actual realised gains and transfers not estimates of value on an ongoing basis.

For random one - Sarah is an artist - she's made 10 paintings... she also works for minimum wage... a collector really likes her exhibition of 10 paintings and seeks to buy the lot, Sarah doesn't actually want to sell all of them, only 2 of the paintings are for sale, the collector offers 40k for them... Sarah now has a minimum wage job and 40K in the bank... but... Sarah also has the 8 remaining paintings - in theory, they're worth 160k... does she now owe you a tax simply because she wants to keep a painting she made herself? Should she burn a few of them to reduce her tax liability?

Again, IMO, she should pay tax once they're actually sold or passed on... perhaps in future they'll be worth even more.. maybe, when she dies, there will be one or two left in her estate and they're worth millions. That's where you tax assets - when they're sold or transferred. Alternatively, maybe the paintings suck and no one else actually wants to buy them - thus the issue with trying to tax based on estimates of value not actual realised gains/transfers of assets.

Obvs most artists don't get to sell paintings for mega $$$$ but it's more to illustrate the principle of it - could apply to anything, perhaps you've registered a really cool domain name and you simply want to keep it for your personal homepage, side hustle... do you now need a loan in order to pay an annual tax to keep it?
 
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Professional workers of the boomer generation usually got a final salary defined benefit pension, those were some of the best in the entire world. And to a large degree, they were unsustainable.

I do save 25% of my gross income into my pension, that's the only way I can be sure to have a reasonable retirement. I don't expect the state pension or the NHS to be around in 30+ years when I retire (either completely gone or means-tested), so I'm not counting on them at all and I know I can only rely on myself.

No wonder you can't afford a house now :p
 
Professional workers of the boomer generation usually got a final salary defined benefit pension, those were some of the best in the entire world. And to a large degree, they were unsustainable.

I do save 25% of my gross income into my pension, that's the only way I can be sure to have a reasonable retirement. I don't expect the state pension or the NHS to be around in 30+ years when I retire (either completely gone or means-tested), so I'm not counting on them at all and I know I can only rely on myself.
Holy moly. How old are you? That is a large chunk to be contributing.
 
What can I say :D:D



I'm 32. I didn't have a lot of contributions up until 28 or so, so trying to catch up.
Ah. Have you properly modelled it though? I mean, even best case at 32 it doesn't need to be monumental.

Ironically most of your pension fund is probably growing thanks to property, lols.
 
Ah. Have you properly modelled it though? I mean, even best case at 32 it doesn't need to be monumental.

Ironically most of your pension fund is probably growing thanks to property, lols.

I don't have any property funds in my pension portfolio, made sure of that :D There was one in the default portfolio and got rid of it when I changed to a more aggressive all-equity portfolio.

My goal is to hit the lifetime allowance (assuming it just increases by inflation from current levels) by 60, so assuming 5% inflation-adjusted return, I would need to contribute about 18% from now on (assuming my salary doesn't increase). So I'm overshooting by 7%. I review it every year and I may readjust to a lower amount later on. Just want to contribute as much as I can earlier on to benefit from compound growth.
 
I don't have any property funds in my pension portfolio, made sure of that :D There was one in the default portfolio and got rid of it when I changed to a more aggressive all-equity portfolio.

My goal is to hit the lifetime allowance (assuming it just increases by inflation from current levels) by 60, so assuming 5% inflation-adjusted return, I would need to contribute about 18% from now on (assuming my salary doesn't increase). So I'm overshooting by 7%. I review it every year and I may readjust to a lower amount later on. Just want to contribute as much as I can earlier on to benefit from compound growth.
No salary increases for 30 years? Latter point makes sense, though.
 
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