House Sale - Un-adopted Road

Greebo · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:04

Jono8 said:
But this makes little sense, otherwise lenders would have big problems with new builds as a whole and I've never found that to be the case.

I've bought two new builds (sold one), and frineds have bought new as well and nothing like this has ever come up mortgage wise.

Maybe there are just some very picky lenders or something.

Shrugs....I can only go on google. Perhaps 99% of the time its not an issue and perhaps with new builds its not but then becomes one if its 5 years later and somebody is selling the house on and thew road is still not adopted and there isnt the right paperwork in place.

Google would suggest that this is occasionally an issue usually to the frustration of the buyer.

krooton · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:27

Maybe that is why developers always push their preferred lender (among other reasons), as they have an agreement that stuff like unadopted roads won't be an issue?

413x · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:27

HungryHippos said:
That will vary a fair bit. Mine is a bit under £300 a year.

That's actually quite a lot.
Could be a couple of months council tax in some places.
Especially as it can go up.

Still think this case is the buyers finding out about it late stage.

Let's say you don't even know aboutsservice charges (I didn't know they were a thing) and found out late stage.
I would seriously consider pulling out too. 50-100 a month is a lot if you're at max lending too.

Especially with that number going up. Its essentially raising your council tax band maybe 4+ bands

krooton · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:31

Ours is £260/year which would be fine if we weren't paying full council tax prices.

I still don't understand how councils can get away with charging full price when they aren't maintaining roads, lights, public areas, etc.

VincentHanna · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:42

Because that's not the majority of what you are paying for anyway

You are funding police, social services etc.

Surveyor · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:42

krooton said:
Ours is £260/year which would be fine if we weren't paying full council tax prices.

I still don't understand how councils can get away with charging full price when they aren't maintaining roads, lights, public areas, etc.

Council Tax isn't directly related to the services you receive or use.

HungryHippos · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:47

413x said:
That's actually quite a lot.
Could be a couple of months council tax in some places.
Especially as it can go up.

Still think this case is the buyers finding out about it late stage.

Let's say you don't even know aboutsservice charges (I didn't know they were a thing) and found out late stage.
I would seriously consider pulling out too. 50-100 a month is a lot if you're at max lending too.

Especially with that number going up. Its essentially raising your council tax band maybe 4+ bands

Ours is based on size of house and the whole service charge for the year is shared out on a % basis.

Tbh this one seems reasonably stable so far. Estate is 7-8 years old now and it's gone up a bit, but it's not risen massively.

I am in Band D of the local council, so it's £1,732.02 for this year. So yeah a bit like paying 2 extra months council tax.

Tbh it's more annoying they can't take it monthly without charging extra (Extra £20 for the year if you pay monthly, so I have to pay in full annually).

krooton said:
Ours is £260/year which would be fine if we weren't paying full council tax prices.

I still don't understand how councils can get away with charging full price when they aren't maintaining roads, lights, public areas, etc.

Yeah I think it's all about the back channel deals. The council don't have any extra costs for them it's free money as you say, no work for full pay

The only positive we have is the estate has a septic tank so I don't pay sewerage apparently, so saves a bit there.

VincentHanna · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:53

HungryHippos said:
Yeah I think it's all about the back channel deals. The council don't have any extra costs for them it's free money as you say, no work for full pay

So the houses aren't full of families with kids using schools?

This is my local council spend in £m

Education and skills 667.6
Health and adult social care 620.0
Children and families 149.8
Environment and waste 86.9
Public health 63.9
Infrastructure 63.8
Other 292

HungryHippos · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:54

Surveyor said:
Council Tax isn't directly related to the services you receive or use.

No but part of the council costs are for maintaining public spaces, which they are avoiding by offloading the responsibility to management companies for new build estates.

It's an imbalance that older home owners don't have, so would be nice to see the wider problem addressed sometime.

A lot of the management companies have no controls in place so it's possible that they can charge what they want to with no limits in place.

whiskycycle · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:55

peterwalkley said:
its very common for it to take a while for Councils to formally adopt roads on new estates.

Nearly 12 years from new build to road adoption on our estate... further delays caused by Newcastle City Council waiting for the developer and Northumberland Estates to resolve the small issue of a collapsed culvert before they'd touch it!

HungryHippos · 24 Jul 2020 at 10:57

VincentHanna said:
So the houses aren't full of families with kids using schools?

This is my local council spend in £m

Education and skills 667.6
Health and adult social care 620.0
Children and families 149.8
Environment and waste 86.9
Public health 63.9
Infrastructure 63.8
Other 292

I don't think anyone has said council tax should be free?

My point was that the council have less work to do but charge the same, for them it makes sense to let a management company deal with the problem rather than add it to their workloads.

Would make sense for council tax to be a bit lower for new build estates they haven't adopted (not free).

Surveyor · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:02

HungryHippos said:
No but part of the council costs are for maintaining public spaces, which they are avoiding by offloading the responsibility to management companies for new build estates.

It's an imbalance that older home owners don't have, so would be nice to see the wider problem addressed sometime.

A lot of the management companies have no controls in place so it's possible that they can charge what they want to with no limits in place.

So everyone should only pay for the services they receive or use?

I look forward to my 50% discount while, for example, those with children in school pay an extra 25% for each child.

VincentHanna · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:03

Surveyor said:
So everyone should only pay for the services they receive or use?

I look forward to my 50% discount while, for example, those with children in school pay an extra 25% for each child.

Indeed

And never mind that you might get old and need adult social care at some point.

krooton · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:05

HungryHippos said:
I don't think anyone has said council tax should be free?

My point was that the council have less work to do but charge the same, for them it makes sense to let a management company deal with the problem rather than add it to their workloads.

Would make sense for council tax to be a bit lower for new build estates they haven't adopted (not free).

Exactly, hell, we don't have kids but I have no problem contributing towards that, I just thinks it's cheeky we have to pay for certain things essentially twice.

Also, as the roads aren't adopted, loads of non-estate people park in the estate for free, as it is a short walk to the station, and our roads are 'policed'. Less so now with covid, but it was pretty bad last year.
Luckily we are on the furthest end of the estate from the station, but it still impacts loads of other residents.

HungryHippos · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:08

Surveyor said:
So everyone should only pay for the services they receive or use?

I look forward to my 50% discount while, for example, those with children in school pay an extra 25% for each child.

You're missing my point, or choosing to twist it to benefit your point.

If the council wanted to they could adopt the roads when the estates are built. Why don't they? For me the reason is clear, because a 3rd party is happy to do it for them at no cost to the council. Instead it's an additional financial burden on residents above and beyond council tax.

I am happy to pay council tax for things I don't use like schools and things, but the upkeep of the road should be the responsibility of the council.

krooton · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:08

Surveyor said:
So everyone should only pay for the services they receive or use?

I look forward to my 50% discount while, for example, those with children in school pay an extra 25% for each child.

That is not my angle, my angle is that if I had to pay my estate management company for education related costs, then I shouldn't have to pay the council for the same thing again.

I'm not trying to not pay for things, I am trying to not pay for things twice.

HungryHippos · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:09

krooton said:
That is not my angle, my angle is that if I had to pay my estate management company for education related costs, then I shouldn't have to pay the council for the same thing again.

I'm not trying to not pay for things, I am trying to not pay for things twice.

Yeah that is what I was trying to say but you said it better than I could

The people arguing that it's somehow a good thing presumably don't pay it.

Nitefly · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:22

krooton said:
That is not my angle, my angle is that if I had to pay my estate management company for education related costs, then I shouldn't have to pay the council for the same thing again.

I'm not trying to not pay for things, I am trying to not pay for things twice.

The management company will deal with the maintenance of the common parts for the estate and incur costs relating to general estate management. I don’t see how this could occur in relation to ‘education’ contributions as that is not going to be within the detailed list of services set out in the service charge provisions of the estate transfer - it’s not anything that would be considered a typical estate management cost.

An issue may arise, however, in respect of, say, .... hypothetically, waste management, where the council refuses to collect refuse for some reason (such as the bin store in a tower block being inaccessible, for some reason) and the man co therefore arrange a private collection which must be paid by flat tenants (despite the fact they pay for waste collection via council tax).

Surveyor · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:26

krooton said:
That is not my angle, my angle is that if I had to pay my estate management company for education related costs, then I shouldn't have to pay the council for the same thing again.

I'm not trying to not pay for things, I am trying to not pay for things twice.

HungryHippos said:
Yeah that is what I was trying to say but you said it better than I could

The people arguing that it's somehow a good thing presumably don't pay it.

You're not paying the council specifically for estate services (roads etc.) you're paying into an overall pot the same as you are with Income Tax and VAT.

You chose to buy a property with service charges and, you're right, I made sure I didn't.

krooton · 24 Jul 2020 at 11:37

Nitefly said:
The management company will deal with the maintenance of the common parts for the estate and incur costs relating to general estate management. I don’t see how this could occur in relation to ‘education’ contributions as that is not going to be within the detailed list of services set out in the service charge provisions of the estate transfer - it’s not anything that would be considered a typical estate management cost.

It was just an example of something that isn't double-costed.

Any way, I love my house and estate, just having a first-world-problem moan