How do people afford to work in expensive areas of the country?

[fez]

Yes the UK is a good place to live in the whole world.
But it's **** to see it going backwards

Seeing the state pension go up by inflation while people's jobs lag behind.. Knowing you'll probably never see that pension you yourself are paying for.

The boomer generation is the peak.
Where you can have one parent earning and a family.
Where many have final salary pensions.
Where a mediocre job and some. Sensible choices like buying a house can make you a millionaire.

I can't see that happening again. UK is on the decline. I don't see anyway to stop it that's going to happen.

It doesn't get me down. But I'm damn glad I'm not a kid now. (as a curve ball add growing up with deliberately addictive social media), certainly glad I didn't have that.



Im glad I don't have kids to worry about. Because if I did I would worry about them. Without a leg up from parents how will the majority of kids now ever manage to survive. With dwindling public services, an nhs that's heading private, every increasing rent, and no pension?

I have no solutions to this other than the end of capitalism

This is generally how I feel as well apart from the bit where I do have children. People act as if the UK is a ******** and its not. Its still generally a good place to live. The issue is that its on the decline and currently there is no sign of the slide being arrested. We are just ignoring all the huge issues that are going to really cause issues in the country and thats ignoring the global landscape which is going to be a mess in the coming years too I fear.

I don't think capitalism is the problem, its unbridled capitalism and the fact that companies now run the world. We've created a world when the actions of people inside corporations are completely insulated from consequences when the inevitable results of those decisions happen. The banking crisis of 2008, cambridge analytical, the post office scandal, the handling of COVID, contracts etc. We live in a time where people can make knowingly corrupt and awful decisions and suffer no consequences or at the very most, consequences that anyone would happily take for the amount of money they made.

 

[413x]

This is generally how I feel as well apart from the bit where I do have children. People act as if the UK is a ******** and its not. Its still generally a good place to live. The issue is that its on the decline and currently there is no sign of the slide being arrested. We are just ignoring all the huge issues that are going to really cause issues in the country and thats ignoring the global landscape which is going to be a mess in the coming years too I fear.

I don't think capitalism is the problem, its unbridled capitalism and the fact that companies now run the world. We've created a world when the actions of people inside corporations are completely insulated from consequences when the inevitable results of those decisions happen. The banking crisis of 2008, cambridge analytical, the post office scandal, the handling of COVID, contracts etc. We live in a time where people can make knowingly corrupt and awful decisions and suffer no consequences or at the very most, consequences that anyone would happily take for the amount of money they made.

For sure.
Any board level individuals can do whatever they like really. It doesn't matter. Usually get laid off with a nice package and just start somewhere else.
Same in politics.

Maybe it's inevitable. With human nature (ie greed) and natural ebb and flow. Of populations (think how predator numbers in nature go through boom and bust cycles).

I don't see any way we will stop it without significant changes to politics world wide.
And as this doesn't really benefit the wealthy, the politicians.. How will it ever happen? How will the rich/poor divide be reduced?

It would probably take some huge protest event.. Where there are so many "have nots" that's it's viable. At the moment it's not enough.

How do you distribute more wealth from rich to the poor? No idea!

 

[potatolord]

The guardian today is pushing a story about the need for pension age to rise to 71. Just about doable if you're in an office, not great if you're a roofer.

How that would play out, God alone knows.

Just to be controversial, would a maximum number of claimable pension years work better? So, you got full pension for 20 years (say) and then went to income support? Any views?

 

[jpaul]

Plenty of remote and hybrid roles depending on the sector.
I live in Newcastle and work is hyrid remote, in London 3 days a week (my choice, could go fully remote).

you don't think remote/hybrid working is just an artefact of covid - googles/apples/my company now reject the efficiencies of hybrid working,
and I think it's a poor/exceptional foundation for uk economy - mentoring/team-work all go to pot under remote working, modern technology can't compensate.
Companies need to take a leap of faith, with some government subsidy, that setting up in nicer uk regions will provide an efficient workforce.

(... my local cambridge council are trying 4day weeks, subsidised by my rates)

 

[adam cool dude]

For sure.
Any board level individuals can do whatever they like really. It doesn't matter. Usually get laid off with a nice package and just start somewhere else.
Same in politics.

Maybe it's inevitable. With human nature (ie greed) and natural ebb and flow. Of populations (think how predator numbers in nature go through boom and bust cycles).

I don't see any way we will stop it without significant changes to politics world wide.
And as this doesn't really benefit the wealthy, the politicians.. How will it ever happen? How will the rich/poor divide be reduced?

It would probably take some huge protest event.. Where there are so many "have nots" that's it's viable. At the moment it's not enough.

How do you distribute more wealth from rich to the poor? No idea!

Like I mentioned previously. Bringing valuable assets back into state ownership. For that to happen though you would need a dictator above everyone else with his/her sole objective of making everyone better which is a Utopia that will never happen. (A king with a backbone taking control wouldn't actually be a bad thing at this moment in time). Governments are too easily corruptible because there are people a lot more powerful outside politics that make the real decisions.

If our oil reserves were made state owned and turned into a sovereign wealth fund it would give us immense power as a small country. You could have mass building of social housing to decrease house prices, lucrative final salary and wages for public sector jobs. In turn making us live longer with a better NHS and better educated children because we attract the best teachers from all over Europe. Private sector would have to adapt too as the best wages would now be in the public sector domain.

The crux is in the 80's we sold off everything to the highest bidder whereas now the revenue the government can generate is all scraps and rubbish like ULEZ etc.

 

[fez]

The guardian today is pushing a story about the need for pension age to rise to 71. Just about doable if you're in an office, not great if you're a roofer.

How that would play out, God alone knows.

Just to be controversial, would a maximum number of claimable pension years work better? So, you got full pension for 20 years (say) and then went to income support? Any views?

Its not doable. Its another "kick the can down the road" solution. Its like saying "our house is flooded, what should we do? I know, lets get a slightly bigger bucket to bail out the water".

At some point people have to say **** this. Try telling someone they will never own a house, have no savings, an ever decreasing quality of life and then they also have to work until they are 71. Don't worry though, the people who ****** up the world retired early, on pension schemes you would frankly find unbelievable and spent their retirement living the life.

 

[Werewolf]

The crux is in the 80's we sold off everything to the highest bidder whereas now the revenue the government can generate is all scraps and rubbish like ULEZ etc.

And the government's current plan to deal with the fact they've bankrupted the councils by cutting funding to them whilst increasing their direct responsibilities and reducing their ability to raise money through council tax is to sell off every asset they've still got, and rent them back.

Great for the finances this year and possibly next year as it might fill some of the funding gap for a a while, but then they're stuck paying commercial rents and maintenance rates on properties they owned free and clear.

My local council did that for several of it's offices a decade or two back, and from memory has now spent more on leasing and higher maintenance costs for them than they received from the sale.

 

[randomshenans]

Wages in the UK are such a comical joke these days

 

[NickK]

I've seen a job online that I'd really like to do but the salary is under £30k and it's located in the South East, not that far from London (edit: closer to Oxford). How do people afford to do these 'normal' salary jobs in areas like this? Purely from already living in the area / having family to help out? Been employed for many years and bought a house more than 20 years ago?

Edit - Trying to keep this vague has led to assumptions so a bit more about the situation:

- I’m in my 40s,
- I’ve worked 20 years in a career I no longer enjoy so wanting to change,
- Currently earning a little over £40k,
- Current rent in the NE is £500/month for a 2 bed flat,
- the role I’m interested in is skilled but a manual job so WFH is not an option,
- it’s closer to Oxford along the M40 than London itself,
- would be maybe for a couple of years to get the experience then maybe look to move back to the NE or a cheaper area,
- it’s a difficult field to get into and not many jobs crop up.

Issue is someone is trying it on with a low salary. If they do that with salary I guarantee the same with work hours as the culture will stink.

 

[Werewolf]

Wages in the UK are such a comical joke these days

At least they're slightly better than the USA and we've still got workers rights, for now.

Apparently some parts of the USA are still on the federal minimum wage as set something like 20 years ago, $7.25 an hour from memory and the solution to people not wanting/being able to afford working for that wage is according to some of the states to introduced laws that let 14 years olds work nights, and I think one Republican state has had a proposal to basically put the US back to the 1910's by saying that as long as a child has a job they should be able to leave education at 14 (I'm not sure if that was one of the states where they found 10 year olds working in meat packing plants, using dangerous cleaning chemicals without any PPE).

 

[fez]

And the government's current plan to deal with the fact they've bankrupted the councils by cutting funding to them whilst increasing their direct responsibilities and reducing their ability to raise money through council tax is to sell off every asset they've still got, and rent them back.

Great for the finances this year and possibly next year as it might fill some of the funding gap for a a while, but then they're stuck paying commercial rents and maintenance rates on properties they owned free and clear.

My local council did that for several of it's offices a decade or two back, and from memory has now spent more on leasing and higher maintenance costs for them than they received from the sale.

Don't forget encouraging councils to get "creative" with their budgets. And by creative, far too many councils invested **** loads of money in essentially scams and bankrupt themselves.

And thats been government policy for ages. Don't worry about 5 years from now, worry about the next election. Its all a ponzi scheme. West society is a ponzi scheme that requires infinite growth and ever increasing populations. It just about functions when your economy is always growing nicely and each generation is larger than the last to keep those tax based plates spinning. Now each generation is getting smaller and the only reason your population isn't shrinking is unchecked immigration its all going to come tumbling down. Plates usually land nicely though so i'm sure it will be fine.

 

[413x]

Like I mentioned previously. Bringing valuable assets back into state ownership. For that to happen though you would need a dictator above everyone else with his/her sole objective of making everyone better which is a Utopia that will never happen. (A king with a backbone taking control wouldn't actually be a bad thing at this moment in time). Governments are too easily corruptible because there are people a lot more powerful outside politics that make the real decisions.

If our oil reserves were made state owned and turned into a sovereign wealth fund it would give us immense power as a small country. You could have mass building of social housing to decrease house prices, lucrative final salary and wages for public sector jobs. In turn making us live longer with a better NHS and better educated children because we attract the best teachers from all over Europe. Private sector would have to adapt too as the best wages would now be in the public sector domain.

The crux is in the 80's we sold off everything to the highest bidder whereas now the revenue the government can generate is all scraps and rubbish like ULEZ etc.

Yeah it would take this.
There's no reason public services couldn't be good. But, as always, people are selfish and do many public services are just dire. But when you subsidise it anyway... May as well make it public.

But to do it legally now is impossible. Too much money. Instead you have water companies upping rates, dumping sewage and paying dividends... How this is allowed with a captive audience I have no idea. At least DCWW is not for Profit. (apparently DCWW bills are falling next year.

Like you say it would need a dictator to just say.. Screw the system.. Its Coming back in to public hands. But it also can't happen in this world.

And I guess that's the crux. The world would yacht to move as one and just accept the fallout. I cannot imagine what would happen.


Every solution has so much pain it's always preferable to kick that can down the road

 

[413x]

Its not doable. Its another "kick the can down the road" solution. Its like saying "our house is flooded, what should we do? I know, lets get a slightly bigger bucket to bail out the water".

At some point people have to say **** this. Try telling someone they will never own a house, have no savings, an ever decreasing quality of life and then they also have to work until they are 71. Don't worry though, the people who ****** up the world retired early, on pension schemes you would frankly find unbelievable and spent their retirement living the life.

Its at the point where it's clear that most young people now will not have a pension. If the pension age is going up above 70 as and nhs waiting lists are tending towards "pay for private".... And you have no assets...you will just die younger and younger.


We might as well make a decision now..
Are we going to stop pretending and just say.. This is America where workers rights are being stripped away, you have 10 days holiday a year, the state will not support you... If you're dealt a bad hand.. Its the coffin for you.

Or do we be bold and try to go back to a more balanced approach where wealth is taxed, rich are taxed more, we take things public and run them well, corps are taxed etc


But no one is going to vote for that. And without a global. Initiative, taxing mega corps more is avoidable for them.



I yet to hear an argument that's would work both technically.. But.. More importantly.. Would work realistically.

I mean the world is pedalling back net zero, exxon is sueing it's share holders. This is actually not a very painful sacrifice. But it's clear we can't do it. So really.. I don't think we have a chance to make even bigger changes to finance.


Man, it's grim if you think about it on a macro scale. Really makes you want to live more selfishly, live for the moment. And thus.. More fuel in the wrong direction.


For me it's a lost cause. All I see is regression on all the fronts that are "better in the long run" or "better for all".


Edit :
As "woe me" as this sounds, and it makes me sound depressed. it's actually making me happier. As I'm living more for now. Trying to enjoy what I have etc.
You can go two ways. Live in misery and envelop all this negativity. Or you can go. F it. If I can't beat them.. Join them.
And thus.. Again.. The reward for fuelling the issue is there at a personal level.. And thus it won't change.

 

[Richard - London]

At least they're slightly better than the USA and we've still got workers rights, for now.

Your joking right? Most jobs in the US pay way more for the same work.

 

[Werewolf]

Your joking right? Most jobs in the US pay way more for the same work.

"most" There are an awful lot of jobs in some states that will pay the federal minimum wage, or you are largely reliant on tips, and companies fight hard to not increase above that minimum wage.
At least in the UK we have a minimum wage that applies regardless of job with few or no get outs or clauses, and it's increased in the last 20 years.

Not to mention the "at will" states, or the fact that you might get 20k a year more than in the UK, but you then pay 25k a year in halthcare for the family (before you actually take out any "deductibles" or "co-pays"), so a headline much better pay packet rapidly gets eroded by things that in the UK you don't generally think about.

 

[Sudden]

I've had colleagues move from here to the US (California) and have said that whilst in number terms, their salary doubled, in practical terms, it's the same given much higher cost of living there. The wealth disparity (at least in San Francisco) is insane - I grew up in India, have travelled a fair bit, and SF is the only place I've been to that gave me a culture shock. Not to mention the drug problem the city seems to have.

I guess if can live/work there, but then spend all your time somewhere else, then you'd be much further ahead, but practically, a bit more difficult!

 

[Jono8]

I don't think capitalism is the problem, its unbridled capitalism and the fact that companies now run the world. We've created a world when the actions of people inside corporations are completely insulated from consequences when the inevitable results of those decisions happen. The banking crisis of 2008, cambridge analytical, the post office scandal, the handling of COVID, contracts etc. We live in a time where people can make knowingly corrupt and awful decisions and suffer no consequences or at the very most, consequences that anyone would happily take for the amount of money they made.

This is one of the major problems. Even if someone in a high paying position fails, they still get enormous pay offs. Essentially people in these positions simply cannot fail.

A company can fail/lose money etc etc, yet somehow the people at the top always get theirs regardless.

 

[Jono8]

Wages in the UK are such a comical joke these days

Indeed. It is like we have got stuck in a time warp. I swear companies still think ~30k a year is a good/average type salary....yeh maybe about 15 years ago. A single 30k salary gets you very little, especially in the south east. If you have a family/children, even two ~30k salaries isn't great.

With how everything has got absurdly more expensive ~30k should be minimum wage. The median (if it had kept up with everything) should be more like ~45k

Honestly, you look up virtually anything that you can buy (apart from maybe consumer electronics), especially essentials, and they have gone up at least 70% since 2008/2009. Median salaries? 30%.....

 

[Nitefly]

Indeed. It is like we have got stuck in a time warp. I swear companies still think ~30k a year is a good/average type salary....yeh maybe about 15 years ago. A single 30k salary gets you very little, especially in the south east. If you have a family/children, even two ~30k salaries isn't great.

With how everything has got absurdly more expensive ~30k should be minimum wage. The median (if it had kept up with everything) should be more like ~45k

Yup - I was earning in the £20-30k range as a graduate outside of London ~12 years ago, living in a flat share.

I’m certain that I could not live the same way now, even with an adjusted salary.

I really feel for the new generation

 

[platinum87]

Go on then, put a positive spin on working 60 hours a week on min wage. Really extoll the benefits and the virtues... I'm all ears.

And then perhaps remind people that you're of the rentier class (a landlord). Who gets to sit back and watch money pour in because you own a valuable asset.

I used min wage as an example, to show how anyone who is willing to do so, can work, and achieve all their goals.

There is nothing to stop you buying a valuable asset, it requires that you work more.