How does HMRC continue operating like this?

[EvilRob]

This happens to me often as a result of our annual bonus. Queue an expected earnings jump to £192k!!

Last time they took £3k extra off me the month following my bonus. I called them and they agreed they'd got it wrong. They said 'the computer had made a mistake', thinking my salary had increased by several thousand pounds. They then said the system would correct itself the following month Who is going to wait that long to get £3k back??

How can they get away with operating like this? Any private company would find itself in serious water. It doesn't fill you with confidence when you repeatedly have to phone HMRC to tell them how tax works and what you should be paying. A total shambles

Yep, and you pretty much have to wait until your tax return sometimes more than 1 year later to make sure everything actually is correct and be sure you have got back any extra tax you paid.

 

[jon86]

In some ways, I actually prefer the US tax system where you tell your employer what you want them to withhold for taxes and then file a tax return by April of the following year. It largely prevents issues such as those mentioned numerous times in this thread, where HMRC tells your employer one thing, and then changes it due to an error, then changes it again after you complain, and so on... all the while your take home pay is yo-yoing up and down. There are checks and balances with the US system too; if you want your employer to deliberately under-withhold, you can request that, but if there was no legitimate purpose for it, you'll face penalties come tax return filing time.

 

[Efour]

It's the same in Sweden you can under or overpay tax at your request.
A few of my work mates that are not so good at managing their own finances overpay slightly as a kind of hard locked yearly savings account.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

You need to contact them, same thing happen to a few friends they thought it would auto corrct but it didnt, so they phoned up the tax people.

It will auto correct when the tax year is over. Until then it won't auto adjust unless a large change happens again.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

This happens to me often as a result of our annual bonus. Queue an expected earnings jump to £192k!!

Last time they took £3k extra off me the month following my bonus. I called them and they agreed they'd got it wrong. They said 'the computer had made a mistake', thinking my salary had increased by several thousand pounds. They then said the system would correct itself the following month Who is going to wait that long to get £3k back??

How can they get away with operating like this? Any private company would find itself in serious water. It doesn't fill you with confidence when you repeatedly have to phone HMRC to tell them how tax works and what you should be paying. A total shambles

Their software hasn't been updated in 30 years and their staff haven't had a wage rise in 15 years.

Because it's a popularity contest. People like it when the police, NHS, etc get given big chunks of the budget.

Leave a service to run on fumes and it eventually starts to crack.

 

[DanTheMan]

Their software hasn't been updated in 30 years and their staff haven't had a wage rise in 15 years.

Because it's a popularity contest. People like it when the police, NHS, etc get given big chunks of the budget.

Leave a service to run on fumes and it eventually starts to crack.

I know you're being facetious as per usual, however;

The Real Time Information system which enables automatic tax code changes wasn't even introduced until 2012 and is constantly updated.

Also, I've only worked for HMRC for 17 months and I've had 2 pay rises in that time.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I know you're being facetious as per usual, however;

The Real Time Information system which enables automatic tax code changes wasn't even introduced until 2012 and is constantly updated.

Also, I've only worked for HMRC for 17 months and I've had 2 pay rises in that time.

Really?

Can you tell me what the rate of inflation has been over the past 2 years and how much your 1% rise means in real terms?

It's effectively a real terms wage cut. Hmrc staff had their wages frozen for 4 years in 2008. Since then they haven't had a single wage rise above inflation.

A grade HO used to earn the same amount as a sergeant in the police.

Now a constable earns more than a HO.

So maybe go ask people who have worked there for the past 20 years?

Your 1% wage rise is well below inflation and the industry standard. Also 1% has actually been an increase for around 5-10 years it was 0.5%.

If my salary in say 2010 was £30k and they gave me a wage rise of £50 per yeah so now in 2020 I'm earning £30,500.

That isn't a real terms wage rise. I'm substantially poorer as the cost of living, food, electricity, council tax has risen.

My council tax went up 5% this year and the year before it.

So do you honestly believe that wages being frozen for 4 years then 10 years of 0.5% and 3 years of 1% is a wage rise?

Even DWP got a 10% wage rise, as did MP's not long ago.

Historically people on the same grade used to get paid more in hmrc than DWP now its the other way around.

That just shows you how stagnant their wages have been for 2 decades.

 

[Surveyor]

Snip.

If you meant a real terms wage rise perhaps you should have said that in the first place.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

If you meant a real terms wage rise perhaps you should have said that in the first place.

It's the same thing.

If you haven't been given an above inflation wage rise its not a wage rise.

Sure you have more money but everything else costs more than the rise. Therefore you have less money.

 

[Surveyor]

It's the same thing.

If you haven't been given an above inflation wage rise its not a wage rise.

Sure you have more money but everything else costs more than the rise. Therefore you have less money.

Using your previous example £30,000 to £30,500 is a wage rise in absolute terms but not in real terms.

As I said, if you meant a wage rise in real terms you should have said so.

 

[DanTheMan]

Really?

Can you tell me what the rate of inflation has been over the past 2 years and how much your 1% rise means in real terms?

It's effectively a real terms wage cut. Hmrc staff had their wages frozen for 4 years in 2008. Since then they haven't had a single wage rise above inflation.

A grade HO used to earn the same amount as a sergeant in the police.

Now a constable earns more than a HO.

So maybe go ask people who have worked there for the past 20 years?

Your 1% wage rise is well below inflation and the industry standard. Also 1% has actually been an increase for around 5-10 years it was 0.5%.

If my salary in say 2010 was £30k and they gave me a wage rise of £50 per yeah so now in 2020 I'm earning £30,500.

That isn't a real terms wage rise. I'm substantially poorer as the cost of living, food, electricity, council tax has risen.

My council tax went up 5% this year and the year before it.

So do you honestly believe that wages being frozen for 4 years then 10 years of 0.5% and 3 years of 1% is a wage rise?

Even DWP got a 10% wage rise, as did MP's not long ago.

Historically people on the same grade used to get paid more in hmrc than DWP now its the other way around.

That just shows you how stagnant their wages have been for 2 decades.

Well RPI at its highest this year is 2.7%, I had a 2% pay rise plus all pay bands were uplifted by 1.84% so a 3.84% in total since March 2019.

If you know about HMRC banding, you'd know that the role of a HO has changed drastically in the past 20 years. Even a decade ago, a HO would have their own office in a lot of buildings and would be responsible for a team of people or have the power to sign off warrants / information notices.

The HO role now is nothing like that. It's essentially a technical role with much less responsibility. A HO equivalent in the DWP would be running an entire job centre or at least be managing a team of experienced colleagues. I wouldn't even think of comparing a HO to a police sergeant in terms of workload or responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means saying that pay is excellent at the lower end of the civil service but it's certainly competitive, relative to jobs that require similar experience and / or skill.

If we're comparing it to private sector, there's no private sector company I've ever worked where the employer contributes the equivalent of 27.5% of my salary into my pension or offers a defined benefit scheme any more.

There's a lot of civil servants who haven't worked in the private sector for so long that they've forgotten how good they've got it.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Well RPI at its highest this year is 2.7%, I had a 2% pay rise plus all pay bands were uplifted by 1.84% so a 3.84% in total since March 2019.

If you know about HMRC banding, you'd know that the role of a HO has changed drastically in the past 20 years. Even a decade ago, a HO would have their own office in a lot of buildings and would be responsible for a team of people or have the power to sign off warrants / information notices.

The HO role now is nothing like that. It's essentially a technical role with much less responsibility. A HO equivalent in the DWP would be running an entire job centre or at least be managing a team of experienced colleagues. I wouldn't even think of comparing a HO to a police sergeant in terms of workload or responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means saying that pay is excellent at the lower end of the civil service but it's certainly competitive, relative to jobs that require similar experience and / or skill.

If we're comparing it to private sector, there's no private sector company I've ever worked where the employer contributes the equivalent of 27.5% of my salary into my pension or offers a defined benefit scheme any more.

There's a lot of civil servants who haven't worked in the private sector for so long that they've forgotten how good they've got it.

I don't think the rise worked like you think it does.

3.84% over 2 years is circa 1.92% vs inflation of 2.7% this year.

So a real terms 0.8% wage cut.

Congrats on that wage rise.

 

[chippie]

If you know about HMRC banding, you'd know that the role of a HO has changed drastically in the past 20 years. Even a decade ago, a HO would have their own office in a lot of buildings and would be responsible for a team of people or have the power to sign off warrants / information notices.

The HO role now is nothing like that. It's essentially a technical role with much less responsibility. A HO equivalent in the DWP would be running an entire job centre or at least be managing a team of experienced colleagues. I wouldn't even think of comparing a HO to a police sergeant in terms of workload or responsibility.

Not quite, you can't really make generalisations like that - remember that HMRC is much larger than just the part you are in, and roles vary. In large parts of the organisation an HO will be responsible for up to 100 staff - yet paid the same as a caseworker responsible for only themselves. There is a huge disparity in roles and responsibilities within the organisation, and with pay. There used to be progression through the pay bands, but that was scrapped years ago, leaving the situation where two people doing the exact same job are paid substantially different amounts.

A lot of the people doing the front line processing work, answering the phones etc are only paid slightly above minimum wage (and the lowest grade had to get an extra pay rise so they are paid the minumum wage) - I struggle to see how they could possibly have "forgotten how good they've got it".

 

[DanTheMan]

I don't think the rise worked like you think it does.

3.84% over 2 years is circa 1.92% vs inflation of 2.7% this year.

So a real terms 0.8% wage cut.

Congrats on that wage rise.

Both the band uplift and and the pay rise were for the same pay year, 2019/20, so 3.84% total for 1 year. There was a different increase for 2018/19 and there will be another increase for 2020/21.

 

[Greebo]

Nothing changes though. HMRC were underpaid 30 years ago when I worked there. My HO at the time who was in his 40s and had been working at HMRC for 20 years remarked his daughter had just left Uni and got her first job as a chemist and she was already matching his wages.

And they are (were) the ones who had to go up against high flying accountants in companies who were paid a fortune to get the lowest taxation for the company (legally and illegally).

Which is why a lot of HMRC staff saw the service as a stop gap/training service and moved to private sector after serving their term in the revenue.

I must admit the very short working hours (37.5 hours) plus flexi time where you could gain an extra 1.5 days holiday per month for the extra hours you worked and the generous pension scheme all made up for the poor salaries to a degree.,

You could start anytime between 8 and 10am and take lunch between 12 and 2 and finish between 4 and 6. I used to aim to work 40 hours per week to get my full extra 18 days holiday on top of my 29 days (you got the one day extra off in June/July every year to celebrate the Queens birthday) i got giving me me 47 days off per annum so more than 9 weeks per year.

And our office had a fully equipped gym and the recreational room had a darts board and table tennis table!

I presume all those nice benefits have gone though now?

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Not quite, you can't really make generalisations like that - remember that HMRC is much larger than just the part you are in, and roles vary. In large parts of the organisation an HO will be responsible for up to 100 staff - yet paid the same as a caseworker responsible for only themselves. There is a huge disparity in roles and responsibilities within the organisation, and with pay. There used to be progression through the pay bands, but that was scrapped years ago, leaving the situation where two people doing the exact same job are paid substantially different amounts.

A lot of the people doing the front line processing work, answering the phones etc are only paid slightly above minimum wage (and the lowest grade had to get an extra pay rise so they are paid the minumum wage) - I struggle to see how they could possibly have "forgotten how good they've got it".

Exactly you have HO's in one HOD 2 grades lower than another HOD for the exact same job role.

So 2 people doing the exact same job just a different HOD and one is being paid £20k per year less.

Also when you haven't given a real terms wage rise in 20 years. It means the quality of the staff will inevitably decrease too.

So you now have an issue where there are a lot of people who are inexperienced and intuitive folk opting to work elsewhere for better pay.

Pay peanuts expect monkeys.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Both the band uplift and and the pay rise were for the same pay year, 2019/20, so 3.84% total for 1 year. There was a different increase for 2018/19 and there will be another increase for 2020/21.

You must be an AA or AO, nobody saw anywhere near that amount in a single year.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Nothing changes though. HMRC were underpaid 30 years ago when I worked there. My HO at the time who was in his 40s and had been working at HMRC for 20 years remarked his daughter had just left Uni and got her first job as a chemist and she was already matching his wages.

And they are (were) the ones who had to go up against high flying accountants in companies who were paid a fortune to get the lowest taxation for the company (legally and illegally).

Which is why a lot of HMRC staff saw the service as a stop gap/training service and moved to private sector after serving their term in the revenue.

I must admit the very short working hours (37.5 hours) plus flexi time where you could gain an extra 1.5 days holiday per month for the extra hours you worked and the generous pension scheme all made up for the poor salaries to a degree.,

You could start anytime between 8 and 10am and take lunch between 12 and 2 and finish between 4 and 6. I used to aim to work 40 hours per week to get my full extra 18 days holiday on top of my 29 days (you got the one day extra off in June/July every year to celebrate the Queens birthday) i got giving me me 47 days off per annum so more than 9 weeks per year.

And our office had a fully equipped gym and the recreational room had a darts board and table tennis table!

I presume all those nice benefits have gone though now?

The problem is if you pay peanuts.

And everyone like you sees it as a stop gap training centre.

Then you have no experienced people left to train those new people coming in.

You end up losing the quality of work and experience.

This gets worse with time and especially if you haven't given a wage rise in 20 yers on top of already terrible wages.you also have those that stayed retiring meaning a generation of experience lost there also.

How can you expect to pay someone pennies who is going up against a huge corporation throwing millions at their legal teams and tax teams?

You won't get anyone with any qualifications. You get literally idiots joining who think life is Towie and love island. They get pushed through as they need the staff.

If you think it's bad now give it another 20 years your going to have people who should have been working as a PA in an office in charge of bringing in £500 million assessments every year but wondering why they only brought in £500k.

Gyms have all been scrapped, the pension has been targeted 3 times in the past 10 years and massive reductions made. The only good thing left is flexi but now all new contracts say that you have to be prepared to work weekends.

Also that extra day off isn't there any more in fact around 10 years ago they took away 2 holidays. People on the old terms still get them. Anyone who has joined recently doesn't.

As for your extra days off that was extra time you worked. Therefore it's not really additional time off. If I asked someone to work 6 days instead of 5 then the following week I'd tell them to take a day off in the private sector or pay them for that day. It's a perk but hardly one to brag about in lieu of cash. Also flexi is only for the lower grades. Higher grades don't get flexi.

 

[Greebo]

As for your extra days off that was extra time you worked. Therefore it's not really additional time off. If I asked someone to work 6 days instead of 5 then the following week I'd tell them to take a day off in the private sector or pay them for that day. It's a perk but hardly one to brag about in lieu of cash. Also flexi is only for the lower grades. Higher grades don't get flexi.

i appreciate that the flexi time off was just giving you time off instead of pay but I was used to working 40 hours minimum plus overtime before I went to work there so a job with a baseline of 37.5 hrs, I was happy to still work 40 hours and get the 47 days off each year. I actually quite liked that aspect and also being able to take a 2 hour lunch of leave work at 4pm was handy as well as I could go to appointments without having to take holdiays.

I work well in excess of 40 hours per week now but I will never see 47 days holiday again

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Both the band uplift and and the pay rise were for the same pay year, 2019/20, so 3.84% total for 1 year. There was a different increase for 2018/19 and there will be another increase for 2020/21.

Okay I have official figures

HO
Increase since 2010 after a pay freeze is 7.84% or circa 0.87% per year

Thats a 7.84% increase since 2007 or 2008.

Average annual increase of 0.87% since 2010 much lower if you take the pay freeze into account and go back to 2007/2008.

CPI has increased 19% since 2010
RPI has increased 28.1% since 2010

You are talking up to 20% real terms wage decrease for a HO since 2010.

Add in the several years of pay freeze before that and its staggering the difference.