How fast should an EK9 Type R be?

Jonnycoupe · 27 Nov 2007 at 22:52

PMKeates said:
From my understanding, doesn't an LSD have a limited application in a straight line? I suppose it prevents a small amount of slippage turning in to a total spinathon...

In a front wheel drive thats not really the case, anything to aid grip at the front will only serve to increase stability. It limits slip, so will prevent one wheel totally lighting up and dumping all the power into tyre smoke.

PMKeates · 27 Nov 2007 at 22:55

Jonnycoupe said:
In a front wheel drive thats not really the case, anything to aid grip at the front will only serve to increase stability. It limits slip, so will prevent one wheel totally lighting up and dumping all the power into tyre smoke.

Ja, that's what I thought. I suppose that one wheel will always have at least slightly more resistance than the other (i.e. always an imperfect traction balance), and so the extra energy diverting to the wheel with less traction will encourage a sort of "exponential" spin. After having many FWD cars, I have to say it's R/AWD for the win tbh! Though I've only driven one FWD car with an LSD, and that was a Rover 200 Turbo, so probably not the best car to get an idea of what sort of usable traction a FWD car can have (because of the torque steer).

Simon · 27 Nov 2007 at 23:02

Torque Steer is a result of LSDs.

Rather than one wheel lighting up the power is transferred to the other. This can make the car 'steer' itself, hence torque steer.

loltim · 27 Nov 2007 at 23:16

EK9 with A/C etc. does 60 in 6.5s ish. 5.7s isn't cobblers but I believe this was achieved in a lightweight version? A 172 shouldn't pull away from one though, not if the Civic's driven properly anyway.

Just noticed your location, where does the guy with the 9 live?

No idea with the fluttering noise, mine sounds pretty awesome

edit
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merlin said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Ebjz7AHBw

You like.

Crikey that's fast, not fully sure what it's got to do with the EK9 though.

g0th2000 · 28 Nov 2007 at 00:34

Simon said:
Torque Steer is a result of LSDs.

Torque-sensitive LSDs can actually significantly reduce torque steer, this is what Quaife have to say about it:

Quaife said:
The Ford Focus RS would not have been such a success without the use of a Quaife Automatic Torque Biasing Helical LSD differential as a standard part, fitted direct from the factory.

The initial "press" cars were not fitted with a Quaife ATB Helical LSD differential, and many journalists were less than polite after their drive!

After much development work, the Quaife ATB Helical LSD differential was found to virtually eliminate the torque steer and understeer that was suffered by the early models, and it was also then used as a standard factory-fitted item on all production models.

Rather than one wheel lighting up the power is transferred to the other. This can make the car 'steer' itself, hence torque steer.

Indeed they do, but this isn't really torque steer, a RWD car would be unbalanced under the same circumstances of uneven grip left-to-right. Torque steer will manifest itself even on the smoothest tarmac, without any wheelspin, with a susceptible FWD car.

PS If the 5.7s was achieved in a non-standard car, then yes it is cobblers

Simon · 28 Nov 2007 at 00:45

g0th2000 said:
Indeed they do, but this isn't really torque steer, a RWD car would be unbalanced under the same circumstances of uneven grip left-to-right. Torque steer will manifest itself even on the smoothest tarmac, without any wheelspin, with a susceptible FWD car.

As the power moves from one wheel to the other it toes in the wheel under power as the front wheels want to carry on forwards without the car. Hence the wheels pivot around the lower arms/wishbone mounting points and load the steering wheel.

Just the compliance of suspension bushs can cause the torque steer, let alone the forces making the steering wheel want to turn. This is why rear wheel drives don't get torque steer, no matter what.

Regardless of what Quaiffe say, an LSD will increase torque steer over a standard differential.

g0th2000 · 28 Nov 2007 at 01:11

Simon said:
As the power moves from one wheel to the other it toes in the wheel under power as the front wheels want to carry on forwards without the car. Hence the wheels pivot around the lower arms/wishbone mounting points and load the steering wheel.

I'm not denying that happens, but it has more to do with available grip than torque steer. Cars that torque steer badly do it irrespective of left-right grip.

Just the compliance of suspension bushs can cause the torque steer, let alone the forces making the steering wheel want to turn.

But not everything that feeds back to steering wheel movement is torque steer is it? Bump steer etc..

This is why rear wheel drives don't get torque steer, no matter what.

No, but if you park an LSD equipped with one sides wheels on the tarmac and the other sides on the grasss and floor it off the line, it'll spear off in the the grass the same way a FWD with LSD would have. That is not torque steer.

Regardless of what Quaiffe say, an LSD will increase torque steer over a standard differential.

They aren't the only people saying it. And it makes sense to me the LSD does it's best to maintain equal torque to both wheels until it locks, with equal torque to both sides the suspension should be feeling pretty equal forces and not steering the car. Once the LSD locks then all bets are off, but by that time you're into uneven grip territory (or going round a corner where the steering effect is desirable

).

My point is as I see Torque steer as an affect that occurs well within the limits of grip, watch Clarkson Astra VXR vid on youtube where he demonstrates; he pulls away reasonably gently, nowhere near enough for there to be any slippage and it stiill pulls left like a bugger. That just doesn't happen on my 'teg.

PMKeates · 28 Nov 2007 at 08:10

g0th2000 said:
No, but if you park an LSD equipped with one sides wheels on the tarmac and the other sides on the grasss and floor it off the line, it'll spear off in the the grass the same way a FWD with LSD would have. That is not torque steer.

Which is why BMW fit their RWD cars with DSC? It all makes sense now!

Crossy · 28 Nov 2007 at 08:20

merlin said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Ebjz7AHBw

You like.

Thats an EF Civic right?

Simon · 28 Nov 2007 at 09:23

g0th2000 said:
They aren't the only people saying it. And it makes sense to me the LSD does it's best to maintain equal torque to both wheels until it locks, with equal torque to both sides the suspension should be feeling pretty equal forces and not steering the car. Once the LSD locks then all bets are off, but by that time you're into uneven grip territory (or going round a corner where the steering effect is desirable ).

Quaiffe ATBs don't lock as such. The simply shift the torque about.

Also on a perfect smooth road they will transmit equal power to each wheel. Great in theory but never happens in the real world, you will always get one wheel with more grip that the other, at worst case one wheel will spin and the other will not move (See Clarksons SD1 for an example going up that hill on Sunday night - only one tyre mark despite loads of smoke).

The Quaiffe shifts this power from side to side as the grip changes, it is this that causes the torque steer. Obviously equal length drive shafts don't help the situation as they 'twist' differently.

My old Rover Turbo had a Torsen LSD as standard. That caused a fair amount of torque steer, nothing crazy though and certainly controllable. By fitting an open diff this would have been eliminated, I think you have picked up on this though in your post.
The only reason for the torque steer going away would be that the car now had less grip and is no capable of ripping your hands off.

FYI typical torque biasing ratios are not 1:1, more like 4:1.

For proof, ask anyone who went in the 1.8T Golf at last weeks rolling road day, that had a Quaiffe

merlin · 28 Nov 2007 at 09:26

Tim said:
not fully sure what it's got to do with the EK9 though.

Who said it was?

gambitt · 28 Nov 2007 at 09:27

Crossy said:
Thats an EF Civic right?

that's correct

AmDaMan · 28 Nov 2007 at 11:28

Tim said:
EK9 with A/C etc. does 60 in 6.5s ish. 5.7s isn't cobblers but I believe this was achieved in a lightweight version? A 172 shouldn't pull away from one though, not if the Civic's driven properly anyway.

Just noticed your location, where does the guy with the 9 live?

No idea with the fluttering noise, mine sounds pretty awesome

edit
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Crikey that's fast, not fully sure what it's got to do with the EK9 though.

He lives in Hillsborough, he's not scared to open it up either, entering roundabouts in 1st etc :eek:

Nathan · 28 Nov 2007 at 13:11

hmm should be quicker. My brothers 1.6 106 gti eats 172's - even cups.

triggerthat · 28 Nov 2007 at 14:19

Nathan said:
hmm should be quicker. My brothers 1.6 106 gti eats 172's - even cups.

I thought they both do 60 in 7ish seconds?

Lopéz · 28 Nov 2007 at 17:38

Simon said:
The only reason for the torque steer going away would be that the car now had less grip and is no capable of ripping your hands off.

For proof, ask anyone who went in the 1.8T Golf at last weeks rolling road day, that had a Quaiffe

I agree with him, it tried to have my arms off

Burnie1000 · 28 Nov 2007 at 18:59

Tim said:
5.7s isn't cobblers but I believe this was achieved in a lightweight version?

I believe the 5.7 was recorded with a Race Base EK9 and as such it would have.

No airbags, no ABS, manual windows, removed aerial, no air-con, no power steering, no recaros (ie lower spec interior) and lightweight thinner glass.

Much lighter therefore improved 0-60.

The Race Base EK9's are pretty rare and you hardly ever see them for sale. I should know cause I own 1

Basically intended to be bought buy individuals and tuning companies to turn into track focused cars.

Heres some pics of mines.

1998 Honda Civic Type R GF-EK9 (Facelift) RACE BASE

PS Mines has power steering and Air-con. Might remove the Air-con haven't decided yet.

Steven

Clarkey · 28 Nov 2007 at 19:04

aint no EK9 without the red recaro's and carpet

loltim · 28 Nov 2007 at 19:08

Nice!

Just to show the difference between Burnies and my 2000(W) Rx.

loltim · 28 Nov 2007 at 19:25

Clarkey said:
aint no EK9 without the red recaro's and carpet

It's a faster one though

Mine's a daily driver so the A/C, PAS, airbags, auto electric windows, recaro seats, red carpets/mats and front fogs are pretty nice to have. I still have the awesome B16B there, just a bit of added weight.

The titanium gear knob, alu pedals and tints are nice too :cool: