how useful is a computing degree, honestly

[BoomAM]

Now that speaks volumes to me on the degree front.

A qualification is not a sign of intelligence. At any level.

Now you comment about CS and Network Engineering being of the same difficulty. A major qualification in your domain is the CCNA, which can be gained within 7 days. The major qualification in the CS domain is a degree which takes 3 years. If network engineering is as difficult a task as CS then why does a degree in CS take 156 times longer to gain.

So your quantifying the complexity of it based on time to attain?
CCNAs can be gained in a very short amount of time, but thats because you dont have to study, you can just go strait to the exam.

So much for lets leave this eh? .

 

[BoomAM]

Are you trying to convince yourself not going to Uni was the right choice or something?

I dont need to convince myself. Im happy with where i am, and havnt discounted attending a Uni in the future, if i need to.

 

[[TW]Fox]

What do you do for a living, BoomAM? Are you... a network tech perhaps?

Also how old are you? Under 25?

 

[DAVEM]

A qualification is not a sign of intelligence. At any level.

What? I didn't say it was

I was demonstrating an example where having a degree will be benefical. And where not having one would leave you with a clear "No sorry you cant do a PhD"

So your quantifying the complexity of it based on time to attain?
CCNAs can be gained in a very short amount of time, but thats because you dont have to study, you can just go strait to the exam.

So much for lets leave this eh? .

Well you have to introduce measures at some point? Other wise it's a "my dad is better than yours" situation. Debate is about backing up your comments.

Debate is a good thing, and this (in the sphere of computing) is a pretty important issue, especially if we have members looking for advice for the future. I'm not saying your a twit or anything! What I would say is you arguments so far lack any solid backup. When I say "your better off doing a degree" I posted official survey results, when I said avenues would be closed without a degree I posted microsoft Reseach's job requirements. You have done very little in this manor

 

[BoomAM]

Well you have to introduce measures at some point? Other wise it's a "my dad is better than yours" situation. Debate is about backing up your comments.

Very true, it is. And upto now it appears that it cant be proved either way, as you havnt provided any evidence that is more concrete than what ive said upto now either.

What do you do for a living, BoomAM? Are you... a network tech perhaps?

Also how old are you? Under 25?

What relevance does that have?

 

[Jock Dodds]

you don't even get a 'network admin' BOFH type these days.

you might get a tin-pot techie in SMBs but as soon as you get a network that takes real management everything is split up; 1st/2nd line support, server guys, infrastructure, user accounts, change control, remote access, hardware, builds and so on. And what's more, any company that's serious about their IT outsources it to someone like BT or EDS and the only network admins are geeks who look after the company's archaic accounting software

sorry for OT but I think it's a point worth making

 

[NathanE]

My current boss told me flat out he wouldn't hire me as a full time consultant if I didn't get a degree - so that's what I did.. a 1.1 in CompSci It's a door opener and stepping stone. Not an experience substitute - just a complement.

I don't do "science" development but I certainly don't do monkey coding either IMO. I write multi-threaded code on a daily, even hourly basis. Pretty much all the projects I work on are multi-threaded in some way. The projects I work on require research, prototyping etc - so there is a clear development process and path. We tend to use the "extreme programming" model because it tends to fit best with a small business and has least overheads. The bads points are that it doesn't scale well (although we fully intend to be bought out before we have more than a handful of developers... so not our problem! ) and also the long working hours. I often work evenings and sometimes weekends just to make sure the team are reaching the goals and finishing projects.

Being a successful developer is a lot more than writing code and knowing complex algorithms OTOH. You need to be business-minded as well in order to satisfy the businessmen of the company. If you aren't churning out polished code or visible progress on a week by week basis and they are having to go back to the customers saying "it's not quite ready yet" then they are going to get annoyed very quickly. Luckily I have the best relationship with the company director one could ever ask for which makes things easier. Also "good" developers understand that sometimes the best solution is not always the most elegant one. There are time constrants so sometimes "hacks" may be in order to fulfil a sale. It's up to the developer to almost instinctively know when to take a shortcut or less than optimal design in order to keep the customers happy.

 

[BoomAM]

My current boss told me flat out he wouldn't hire me as a full time consultant if I didn't get a degree - so that's what I did.. a 1.1 in CompSci It's a door opener and stepping stone. Not an experience substitute - just a complement.

I don't do "science" development but I certainly don't do monkey coding either IMO. I write multi-threaded code on a daily, even hourly basis. Pretty much all the projects I work on are multi-threaded in some way. The projects I work on require research, prototyping etc - so there is a clear development process and path. We tend to use the "extreme programming" model because it tends to fit best with a small business and has least overheads. The bads points are that it doesn't scale well (although we fully intend to be bought out before we have more than a handful of developers... so not our problem! ) and also the long working hours. I often work evenings and sometimes weekends just to make sure the team are reaching the goals and finishing projects.

Being a successful developer is a lot more than writing code and knowing complex algorithms OTOH. You need to be business-minded as well in order to satisfy the businessmen of the company. If you aren't churning out polished code or visible progress on a week by week basis and they are having to go back to the customers saying "it's not quite ready yet" then they are going to get annoyed very quickly. Luckily I have the best relationship with the company director one could ever ask for which makes things easier. Also "good" developers understand that sometimes the best solution is not always the most elegant one. There are time constrants so sometimes "hacks" may be in order to fulfil a sale. It's up to the developer to almost instinctively know when to take a shortcut or less than optimal design in order to keep the customers happy.

Im quite impressed by that actually. .
OT/ but are you finding multi-threaded code to be a big jump from single threaded code?

 

[NathanE]

I've been doing MT code for years really, it's just this job that I have found myself doing it on a daily basis. It's not hard at all if you can think like it. I find it hard to write single threaded code nowadays in fact. Some people can, some can't - at least that's our company's experience.

 

[DAVEM]

My current boss told me flat out he wouldn't hire me as a full time consultant if I didn't get a degree - so that's what I did.. a 1.1 in CompSci It's a door opener and stepping stone. Not an experience substitute - just a complement.

I don't do "science" development but I certainly don't do monkey coding either IMO. I write multi-threaded code on a daily, even hourly basis. Pretty much all the projects I work on are multi-threaded in some way. The projects I work on require research, prototyping etc - so there is a clear development process and path. We tend to use the "extreme programming" model because it tends to fit best with a small business and has least overheads. The bads points are that it doesn't scale well (although we fully intend to be bought out before we have more than a handful of developers... so not our problem! ) and also the long working hours. I often work evenings and sometimes weekends just to make sure the team are reaching the goals and finishing projects.

Being a successful developer is a lot more than writing code and knowing complex algorithms OTOH. You need to be business-minded as well in order to satisfy the businessmen of the company. If you aren't churning out polished code or visible progress on a week by week basis and they are having to go back to the customers saying "it's not quite ready yet" then they are going to get annoyed very quickly. Luckily I have the best relationship with the company director one could ever ask for which makes things easier. Also "good" developers understand that sometimes the best solution is not always the most elegant one. There are time constrants so sometimes "hacks" may be in order to fulfil a sale. It's up to the developer to almost instinctively know when to take a shortcut or less than optimal design in order to keep the customers happy.

Very good post I agree with what you say entirely. Well done on the 1st.

My monkey coders, I'm sure you've come accross. But with that 1st and that background if tomorrow your director said "okay Nathan I need you bit different, I need screen incoming phone calls, can we assess when someone is a serious customer or just price checking". Now you should have ideas of how to do that, or know which bit of theory to look over. That is the bit that CS gives you.

Understanding the corporate and business world is essential for almost any job, and of course in CS too.

 

[joeconway]

ok well, given that this thread is spiralling off topic ill post in what im thinking now.


you lot have been incredibly helpful. Thank you. I was expecting a few sarcy replies; definately not the reams of useful and varied opinions.

it seems to me that all of you lot seem very happy in your decisions whether that be you have a degree or not. But i think the fact still remains that a degrees provides opportunities and although a career is possible without one it is a limited one to a certain degree.

As such I really am going to give this a shot and see if I can try adjust more and settle down with what ive started because theres not much point in limiting myself at this moment in time when i am presented with an opportunity to better myself, one which other people may not get.


It will be difficult but you have explained that it is worth it.

 

[[TW]Fox]

What relevance does that have?

It provides context to your opinions. And if you refuse to answer, people will draw their own conclusions. You are trying to imply things as if you have decades of industry experience at the top yet presenting them in a way that suggests you are about 21ish and think becuase you change peoples passwords, you are god

 

[DAVEM]

ok well, given that this thread is spiralling off topic ill post in what im thinking now.


you lot have been incredibly helpful. Thank you. I was expecting a few sarcy replies; definately not the reams of useful and varied opinions.

it seems to me that all of you lot seem very happy in your decisions whether that be you have a degree or not. But i think the fact still remains that a degrees provides opportunities and although a career is possible without one it is a limited one to a certain degree.

As such I really am going to give this a shot and see if I can try adjust more and settle down with what ive started because theres not much point in limiting myself at this moment in time when i am presented with an opportunity to better myself, one which other people may not get.


It will be difficult but you have explained that it is worth it.

Joe thats a good approach, I wouldn't normally post this here but when I was at a similar age in 2001 I was just about to finish my Alevels, I had a very decent (18K + car) offer from an IT company and a offers from various universities.

To be honest I didn't know what to do, my family where split as well.

For me I learnt to program at around 11, and was pretty decent at about 15 (did some summer work for a major company that now specialises in outsourcing), for the next three years I did indepent software development for local SME's.

I applied to a mix of economics, CS courses and pure maths courses. I chose economics in the end.

I've graduated about 2 years ago, my employer funds my part time masters in maths, and I'm probably going to do a PhD starting next October.

Just have a think, talk to your family and friends in IT, and make the decision based on what you want to do. Don't limit your options, and dont feel pressured and I think you'll be fine

Davem

 

[BoomAM]

It provides context to your opinions. And if you refuse to answer, people will draw their own conclusions. You are trying to imply things as if you have decades of industry experience at the top yet presenting them in a way that suggests you are about 21ish and think becuase you change peoples passwords, you are god

If you read what ive put you'll see ive said i know admins who do that.

I refuse to answer your quesion as it has no relevense whatsosever. Nor does it provide context. All it does is show a weak attempt to backup an opinion that is quite obviously wrong on your part.
What you are trying to do is try to invalidate what ive said based entirely on age/profession. Ive seen it all to often on these boards to fall for it.
You'll have to try a different tactic to win, if thats what floats your boat.

 

[Jez]

Wow this thread really has gotten huge! The answer is that it depends on your circumstances and what you want from life.

I decided that a degree, for me, wasnt worth it, i would be graduating next year if i had stuck it out, but the difference is that i would have come out in debt, and be looking for a job which would likely pay less than what i am on now. I also have the slight bonus in that ive saved over £50k in the last 3 years towards a deposit, if we add on the student debt i am in a fantastic financial position compared with that of which i would be in had i gone.

Will it hamper my future career prospects? Perhaps, but i am so far ahead now that i think it was probably the right decision. There is also the fact that i do not see long term earnings coming from an employed position, which is where qualifications are needed. With my own personal ventures a degree doesnt matter.

So in summary, look at yourself, your position, and decide from there. A career and earning from a salaried position isnt necessarily a good thing - salaries get taxed to the hilt and end up being a lot less than you'd expect.

 

[Felix]

ok well, given that this thread is spiralling off topic ill post in what im thinking now.


you lot have been incredibly helpful. Thank you. I was expecting a few sarcy replies; definately not the reams of useful and varied opinions.

it seems to me that all of you lot seem very happy in your decisions whether that be you have a degree or not. But i think the fact still remains that a degrees provides opportunities and although a career is possible without one it is a limited one to a certain degree.

As such I really am going to give this a shot and see if I can try adjust more and settle down with what ive started because theres not much point in limiting myself at this moment in time when i am presented with an opportunity to better myself, one which other people may not get.


It will be difficult but you have explained that it is worth it.

Good luck in your choice, you have done a 3rd of your undergrad already, so whats another 2 years!

 

[Felix]

I also have the slight bonus in that ive saved over £50k in the last 3 years towards a deposit.

Well done, at least you haven't spent it all on fast women and expensive cars!

 

[[TW]Fox]

If you read what ive put you'll see ive said i know admins who do that.

I refuse to answer your quesion as it has no relevense whatsosever. Nor does it provide context. All it does is show a weak attempt to backup an opinion that is quite obviously wrong on your part.
What you are trying to do is try to invalidate what ive said based entirely on age/profession. Ive seen it all to often on these boards to fall for it.
You'll have to try a different tactic to win, if thats what floats your boat.

Not at all. It DOES provide context. I'm probably no older than you so I'm not trying the 'tsk, kids' line.

Obviously though had I been totally wrong you'd have been quick to the point this out, so in the absence of a proper answer i'll go with my assumption.

 

[Jez]

Well done, at least you haven't spent it all on fast women and expensive cars!

If only that were true

 

[Felix]

I'll go with my assumption.

Or use public profiles