how useful is a computing degree, honestly

[[TW]Fox]

Despite what you appear to think, correct me if im wrong, having a CS related job isnt the top of the IT tree.
The top of that tree is the technician or admin that runs the network that the CS runs his/her stuff on

No, thats absolutely not true at all. That's like saying the top of an accountancy firm is the janitor who controls the office complex.

 

[Jock Dodds]

No, thats absolutely not true at all. That's like saying the top of an accountancy firm is the janitor who controls the office complex.

LOL!

 

[BoomAM]

No, thats absolutely not true at all. That's like saying the top of an accountancy firm is the janitor who controls the office complex.

lol.
No its not. Its completely different.
The IT admin is the one that controls what the CS can and cant do.
The janitor cant.

Becides, your just being pedantic.

 

[[TW]Fox]

lol.
No its not. Its completely different.
The IT admin is the one that controls what the CS can and cant do.

And he does what his boss tells him to. 'Allow person X to do item Y'.

The janitor cant.

He could lock the conference suite. This is the realworld equivilent of an admin saying 'well actually no, i wont give you access rights for that'.

Becides, your just being pedantic.

Not at all - what you said was pretty damn untrue.

Compare the salary rates of a computer scientist with a network tech!!

Are you saying the network tech is 'top of the tree' in other businesses as well? What about at a big city law firm? He controls what the soliciters can do, after all?

 

[ArmyofHarmony]

Well I just got rejected from another job


BASED ON A GUT FEELING


ffs, it's so frustrating... last 2 places i've interviewed at i've only just missed out on a job :/


These are for digital industry type jobs though, not IT...


BUT...


I have an interview for EDS next month (massive IT services firm for anyone that doesn't know).

I have NO real experience apart from retail and hospitality as a kid, but I do have a degree In Physics (only a 2.2 though)... Should be an interesting assessment day.

I don't think people without degrees could have applied to this role either... so there's no point limiting yourself in that respect.

Also my friends without degrees generally have no plans of ever living Swindon. One of my friends said this "Swindon is a dead end town, if you don't have a degree you're stuck here for life"... cracked me up, but its partially true.

 

[Gilly]

What a crazy discussion.

BoomAM, do you actually believe what you're saying or or you messing around?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Richard Bransons personal driver is more important than him. After all, he controls where Mr Branson goes!

 

[Schnippzle]

Got my degree in July with one years experience as part of a sandwich course......and can I find a job????can I ****. Im stuck working for the Microsoft Authentication and Validation department at basic wage. Been rejected by too many companies to really care tbh. Iv realized now that my 4 years I spent in uni would have been better spent doing an MCSA or an MCTS to get to where I want to be which is either sys admin or network admin.

For those who do want to go into business rather than the actual nitty-gritty pc world then yes a degree is for you as graduate programs will enter you into a business in a business sense....if you see what I mean. If you want to actually work with computers rather than dealing with the business surrounding computers or the support for business solutions then you would be better off getting an intership somewhere rather than wasting 3 or 4 years on a degree.

 

[DAVEM]

Pretty much every IT contractor I knew in the 90s. Anyway, it doesn't really detract from my main point, which is that after so many years experience having a degree or not is 'meh'.

The 90's where very different though. Two of members of my own family benefited the growth in IT industry during that time neither of whom finished university. Do they regret not seeing it out? Well one does, and the other doesn't (pretty much sums up this thread! lol)

I see your point about a degree being 'meh' later on in your career. But I still don't think thats true, and is completely depedant on what you do in "IT".

If I want to employ someone to a relatively static enviroment developing lets accouting software in VB. Then of course I'd pay FAR more attention to experiance rather than if they have a degree. I'm giving them a task they are used to doing, and the majourity of the IT industry opperates like that, you're employed as Oracle DBA or a C++ developer.

But there are large sections of IT where the enviroment is not static where you will need the technical skills from your uni training every 5 minutes. Uni isn't there to teach students how to be an Oracle DBA, its there to teach you the fundamentals behind the subject.

Now sure many people might leave uni get a job as a VB programmer and never need those "fundamentals" again just keep upto date with new additions to the language and have the shift and F1 buttons on their keyboards worn away.

But like posted before some of the most interesting tasks at world leading research centers need that CS theory background and they don't deny they do.

When your 18 looking for a career in IT but your not sure 100% what you'd like that to be, not doing a degree rules out MANY avenues, yes it comes at a cost, but for me the much bigger cost is not doing it, realising you want to work in a certain area and then being told you can't because you lack the relevent degree.

A degree opens doors whether you choose to walk through them or not. Without on it is undeniable that you loose certain options for the future. At the same time it's great experiance.

I don't look down at people without degrees, I dont think they are less intelligent and I dont consider a decision not to go to university wrong.

 

[Vanilla]

In my opinion the admins can't control anything. If what someone is doing is important they will be allowed to do whatever they like within reason.

IT Admin (non-tech support) is just an admin. Wintel / Unix / Network / SAN. Day to day activities.

One above them you have the architects. They decide what goes in. Usually very experienced admins and computer scientists. Wide industry knowledge. Not day to day activities - planning, design and install.

One above them you have IT Management. They link the business needs with IT, work with vendors for new kit and involve their architects to find out what to go with.

Then you have the Director / VP of IT who reports into the CIO / CTO.

One thing to remember IT people is you are there to provide a service to the business. You are not as important as you think you are and you don't generate revenue. Sales (& Development depending ion your business) run the roost and if they want they get. Making this happen is the best thing you can do for your company.

I've seen entire policies and procedures thrown out of the window for sales because they want something.

 

[Schnippzle]

When your 18 looking for a career in IT but your not sure 100% what you'd like that to be, not doing a degree rules out MANY avenues, yes it comes at a cost, but for me the much bigger cost is not doing it, realising you want to work in a certain area and then being told you can't because you lack the relevent degree.

A degree opens doors whether you choose to walk through them or not. Without on it is undeniable that you loose certain options for the future. At the same time it's great experiance.

Thats 100% true, however if a person is set on what they want to do then a degree may well be a complete waste of time. At the end of the day, a degree proves that you can learn, as well as ofc the fundamentals behind the chosen subject.

 

[BoomAM]

BoomAM, do you actually believe what you're saying or or you messing around?

Nah not really. Just messing.
I do know some admins who are like that though.

Not at all - what you said was pretty damn untrue.

You asuming that people do what they are told.
I know, as mentioned, admins who arnt like that.

Compare the salary rates of a computer scientist with a network tech!!

Most computer scientists arnt on as much money as you'd think.
Plus, network admins get payed more than you'd think.
In the right company, with the right experiance, its possible to get payed mega-bucks. But thats true of most fields.

Your comparison of janitors and whatnot is pedantic though.
Were on about CS vs admins/techies.

And my argument is that CS jobs dont require more intelligence to do, they require a specific training to do right. The same training that a proper admin would need. Thinking that your more intelligent because your a CS student or have a CS job is just unfounded arrogance.

 

[Vanilla]

I don't think those with CS degrees split off into completely separate jobs but I have noticed that those with CS degrees tend to be holding the higher, decision making positions.

Same with computer engineering.

 

[DAVEM]

Actually for a change I actually agree with BoomAM on the salaries point. They can be very well paid, but of course that is due to supply and demand not difficulty of the position. The classic example I guess would why accounts and lawyers get paid more than top professors.

I generally, in the workplace, get 100% agreement on CS being more challanging that network support. Who do you think designs the protocols that you technies learn on your CCNA type courses? Who designs the operating systems and applications you use? Why do top employers want entrants to have degrees, are they simiply stupid?


Davem

 

[[TW]Fox]

Your comparison of janitors and whatnot is pedantic though.

Do you even know what that word means?

 

[BoomAM]

I generally, in the workplace, get 100% agreement on CS being more challanging that network support. Who do you think designs the protocols that you technies learn on your CCNA type courses? Who designs the operating systems and applications you use? Why do top employers want entrants to have degrees, are they simiply stupid?

Again, do you understand what network support entails? Not just techie level, or even admin level. Proper network management(not sure on exact title )?
While CSs might have designed these protocols, your implying that every CS knows how they were put together. Surely your not claiming that?

Bottom line is both wont work without the other. And neither require more expertise or intelligence. I doubt you'd find many CS's who know how to administer a network, even at a basic level, again, because thats not what they have been trained to do. And again, visa-versa. Probably no techies who know where to start with a CS subject.

CS's are not more intelligent, and CS isnt more complex than high level network management.
Intelligence, complexity and whatnot are all relative.

 

[[TW]Fox]

If it's all the same, I don't think opinions from somebody trying to tell us how important a particular job is despite being unable to remember the name of said job is really that relevant to this discussion.

 

[BoomAM]

If it's all the same, I don't think opinions from somebody trying to tell us how important a particular job is despite being unable to remember the name of said job is really that relevant to this discussion.

Useless addition to the thread that. Picking at something that as no relevence other than to give yourself something to pick at.

How about you tell us how its not all the same?

Is a rocket scientist more intelligent than Rooney for example?
How do you gauge intelligence?

 

[[TW]Fox]

How can you in the one hand try and tell us a certain job is really super difficult and that a CS would never be able to do it, but on the other, you can't even tell us what it is?

I mean really, it comes across like 'Well! Well! This jobs better! honest! But I cant remember what it is!'.

Are you trying to convince yourself not going to Uni was the right choice or something?

 

[DAVEM]

Again, do you understand what network support entails? Not just techie level, or even admin level. Proper network management(not sure on exact title )?
While CSs might have designed these protocols, your implying that every CS knows how they were put together. Surely your not claiming that?

Bottom line is both wont work without the other. And neither require more expertise or intelligence. I doubt you'd find many CS's who know how to administer a network, even at a basic level, again, because thats not what they have been trained to do. And again, visa-versa. Probably no techies who know where to start with a CS subject.

CS's are not more intelligent, and CS isnt more complex than high level network management.
Intelligence, complexity and whatnot are all relative.

Complexity is completely relevent. The most interesting part of this thread was when the young chap said mentioned he might like to research in AI. And suddenly floods of comments saying "yeah well in that case you'll need a degree if not a PhD". Classic moment.

So lets follow this for a moment. A network engineer without a degree couldn't do a PhD (the standard requirement for a PhD is at least a 2.2/2.1). However a CS graduate could get a job in network engineering.

Now that speaks volumes to me on the degree front.

Now you comment about CS and Network Engineering being of the same difficulty. A major qualification in your domain is the CCNA, which can be gained within 7 days. The major qualification in the CS domain is a degree which takes 3 years. If network engineering is as difficult a task as CS then why does a degree in CS take 156 times longer to gain.