HS2/High Speed 2 - Will it happen?

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Ricochet J said:
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Excellent post!

I would like to add infrastructure projects like these are needed, not necessarily for today but the benefits it will bring in decades to come.

Our politicians only think short term these days (usually as far as the next election) and we've forgotten how to plan ahead.
 
Ricochet J said:
Amazing, this shows a lack of understanding.



I'll address your points, and then some:
  • First of all, HS2 is a capacity project - it increases capacity on our congested railways. The solution to this also happens to be modern and fast trains. Hence the "High Speed" moniker. So it's not just a 20 minute reduction in time - it's increased capacity.

    Accept that.

    In addition to the above, here are the actual time savings (From London, and vice versa):
    • London to Birmingham. Current fastest journey time is 1 hour 13 mins. Journey time after HS2 is 49 mins. 24 mins saving.
    • London to Manchester. Current fastest journey time is 2 hours. Journey time after HS2 is 1 hour 8 mins. 52 mins saving.
    • London to Leeds. Current fastest journey time is 1 hour 59 mins. Journey time after HS2 is 1 hour 28 mins. 31 mins saving.
  • The above is compared to fastest journey times - which have an average frequency of 1 train per day. E.g. The regular East Coast Leeds to London service is actually 2 hours 12 mins - therefore larger time savings will be had. Ditto for Birmingham and Manchester.
  • So it's not just saving 20 mins is it?
  • Off course there will be much wider implications. Regional areas such as Liverpool, York, Scotland etc., will use the HS2 tracks via classic compatible trains meaning time savings for everyone. So it's not just Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds benefiting - it's the entire country.
  • HS2 will link into two of the fastest growing airports in the country - Birmingham airport and Manchester airport. It alleviates stress from London centric (as you put it) airports. Airport slots in the South East are expensive - if carriers can move their operations to the Midlands and the North and have incentive to do so (hint: HS2) then they will. Do not underestimate how much it costs for airlines to have a slot in airports in the South East. This will remove over-subscription of airspace in the South East and shift it to the Northern areas.
  • I agree with you - I hate how this country is centralised around London. I used to live in London and left it for Leeds. I'm happier for it.

    HS2 helps to balance the economy - you absolutely must (in fact it's imperative) understand that businesses want to leave London if they can, but they still want to have the benefits of being close to London. London will always be the central hub - but there are always needs to have offices that are not in London. HS2 will help in that regard. A lot of the big players in manufacturing (Proctor and Gamble, Unilever, Johnson & Johnson etc.,) do not have their R&D offices in London - they're outside of London in the North! Being able to connect up to London will be huge for the economy of the North.
  • Sir David Higgins has also said that the ticketing for HS2 will be equivalent to our European and Asian counterparts. I.e. walk up to a machine, and pay an affordable fair. It doesn't have the same business plan as our existing archaic railways where a single to London from Leeds on the day of travel costs a whopping £80. On the day purchases Leeds to London will cost circa £20 (not adjusted for inflation).
  • HS2 will help reinforce existing economies. E.g. Leeds is the digital hub of the UK outside of London. Having a tie in to London (and by extension the continent via Euston) is a HUGE benefit.
  • HS2 will tie into the Northern Powerhouse Rail (TfN) project to link up Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle. Imagine having linked cities in the North whose GVA and GDP rival London - that's absolutely huge news for the economy.
I could continue to cite many reasons why HS2 is NEEDED for the entire country. I suspect 99% of this will go over your head.
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The increased capacity is negated by the increase in cost to the traveller which will leave many people trapped in a second rate rail system as we actually see a reduction in other services. The reduced jouney times make lovely headline figures but only take into account travel from the few HS2 stations and fail to mention the increased travel times for many people who will be forced to either travel to a HS2 station or rely on the reduced services from minor stations.

The ticket situation is just hyperthetical nonsense if it was so easy to make that solution work why do we not already have it, I've read all the bumf as this idea has progressed and witnessed the hilarious idea of putting the Sheffield terminal at Meadowhall forcing anyone wanting to use it to waste the saved time getting there etc I'm afraid I just don't buy it and wish we would invest in sorting out the current mess of our railways instead of complicating it further all to facilitate a few people getting to and from London quicker.
 
Diddums said:
Wow, just wow. Please bookmark this and chuck it at anyone who spouts their anti-London crap. London is the powerhouse of the UK and without it many places would still be in the stone ages. Many are just unable to see this.
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I'm totally not anti London but for the good of the country and the capital we should be encouraging people away where ever possible, anyone who uses the underground regularly during rush hour can't seriously believe that the continued expansion of the capital is a great idea!
 
Ricochet J said:
  • Sir David Higgins has also said that the ticketing for HS2 will be equivalent to our European and Asian counterparts. I.e. walk up to a machine, and pay an affordable fair. It doesn't have the same business plan as our existing archaic railways where a single to London from Leeds on the day of travel costs a whopping £80. On the day purchases Leeds to London will cost circa £20 (not adjusted for inflation)
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Yeah right...
 
Skillmister said:
Yeah right...
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Why do you not believe that? You can sometimes if you are lucky and the wind is blowing in the right direction book an advance oof peak ticket for that much on our current Victorian era line so why would it not be reasonable for all tickets on our new multi-billion pound white elephant not be that price!
 
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a1ex2001 said:
Why do you not believe that? You can sometimes if you are lucky and the wind is blowing in the right direction book an advance of peak ticket for that much on our current Victorian era line so why would it not be reasonable for all tickets on our new multi-billion pound white elephant not be that price!
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I did once go Leeds-London return for under £40 but I had to sacrifice a goat under a full moon for the pleasure
 
a1ex2001 said:
The increased capacity is negated by the increase in cost to the traveller which will leave many people trapped in a second rate rail system as we actually see a reduction in other services.
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You're talking out of your anus here. How is capacity negated by cost? I've already told you the business plan for HS2 is not the same as our classic railways. In fact the plan has received Royal Accent after a Commons vote including scrutiny by academic experts in the field!

So yeh, you're talking out of your anus.

a1ex2001 said:
The reduced jouney times make lovely headline figures but only take into account travel from the few HS2 stations and fail to mention the increased travel times for many people who will be forced to either travel to a HS2 station or rely on the reduced services from minor stations.
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What on Earth are you banging on about? Nobody is going to be forced to do anything. Classic lines (East Coast Main Line, West Coast Main Line etc.,) are still going to be running. The HS2 business case depends on them running! In fact HS2 is going to improve classic lines since HS2 will alleviate stress from the oversubscribed rail track!

Nobody is going to be forced to travel to a HS2 station or rely on the reduced services from minor stations. Where did you pluck that rubbish from? A heck of a lot of routes are going to become Classic Compatible which is going to benefit more stations! I seriously recommend you read up on Classic Compatible HS2.

a1ex2001 said:
The ticket situation is just hyperthetical nonsense if it was so easy to make that solution work why do we not already have it,.
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You're showing your naivety here. I've told you before, the HS2 business case is a complete different ball game to the classic rail business case. Classic rail has to factor in obsolescence costs because the Victorians who built the railways didn't! HS2 develops on the existing rail OpEx (operational experience), and OpEx from high speed rail from the continent. Therefore ticket costs are not as expensive as people think. They're not figures plucked from thin air! The HS2 business case has been scrutinised in parliament and given Royal Accent - look up what that means.

a1ex2001 said:
I've read all the bumf as this idea has progressed and witnessed the hilarious idea of putting the Sheffield terminal at Meadowhall forcing anyone wanting to use it to waste the saved time getting there etc I'm afraid I just don't buy it and wish we would invest in sorting out the current mess of our railways instead of complicating it further all to facilitate a few people getting to and from London quicker.
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This again just shows how daft you are! The Meadowhall idea was canned! HS2 into Sheffield is going to use classic compatible stock into Sheffield station.

Frankly you're deluded.
 
Ricochet J said:
This again just shows how daft you are! The Meadowhall idea was canned! HS2 into Sheffield is going to use classic compatible stock into Sheffield station.

Frankly you're deluded.
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I know it was canned but only way into the process the whole thing has been a fantasy from the start how did that idea ever get into a public proposal if it has all been so meticulously planned and costed and then get pulled a few months later when everyone pointed out the impossible impracticability of it?

I can't believe the cost stuff, the project will over run by years and billions of pounds then be put in the hands of a private company that will put profit well ahead of passengers. We have rail franchises reporting record profits while I railway system grinds to a halt if you really believe all that will change because of HS2 then I think you might need to read a bit broader source material!

Clearly we have differing views and I'm not going to go and trawl up links to all the counter research etc that has been published as I don't feel the need. If HS2 delivers even 25% of the supposed benefits it will be a miracle. The East midlands hub sums it up nicely delivering infrastructure where nobody needs it excellent!
 
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a1ex2001 said:
The East midlands hub sums it up nicely delivering infrastructure where nobody needs it excellent!
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It might not be needed today, but if realistically want to reduce reliance on Heathrow then creating fast and easy access to Airports further north seems sensible. You cannot view HS2 as a project to deliver benefits for us but it should for future generations. It's a long term project with long term benefits.
 
The High Speed 2 rail line has steamed into further controversy with a Spanish manufacturer launching a legal challenge against its plans to buy £2.8bn of trains.

Madrid-based Talgo alleges that HS2 botched the procurement of rolling stock and treated it unfairly.
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Is this all the UK train section is now? Shoddy procurement or chancers?

HS2 will rival Japan's bullet trains for reliability, the firm building the high speed railway has claimed.

An average delay target of just 30 seconds will be in place once the railway opens, HS2 Ltd said
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I will eat my hat if this turns out to be true. Didn't they slow down nearby services for HS1 to make it look better?
 
I still find it amazing that people are moaning about the cost. The Victorians spent the modern equivalent of 2.6 trillion pounds on the railways in a single decade, they understood the benefit of investing in the future lol.
 
Is it going to be worth it though? At least for me, the problem with the cost is it will be way out their (revised) budget making the economic case a little hard to swallow.
 
shine said:
It might not be needed today, but if realistically want to reduce reliance on Heathrow then creating fast and easy access to Airports further north seems sensible. You cannot view HS2 as a project to deliver benefits for us but it should for future generations. It's a long term project with long term benefits.
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If it's for the airport stick it at the airport otherwise you loose the hi speed travel bonus in transfers and mucking about an incurring all the additional cost of setting up a local rail infrastructure as east midlands airport has no rail connection! The hub station idea is horribly flawed as you introduce more steps into journeys

ubersonic said:
I still find it amazing that people are moaning about the cost. The Victorians spent the modern equivalent of 2.6 trillion pounds on the railways in a single decade, they understood the benefit of investing in the future lol.
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Not sure the figures and projects really stand comparison! It's not the overall cost that bothers me it's the benefit that i question and whether or not we could get a bigger benefit from spending the same amount of cash elsewhere (reopening the Great Central Railway and a new Trans-Penine line being prime examples) Like many many things our government does I don't believe the Maths as everything costs more then predicted and delivers less benefit than estimated yet they never ever seem to learn one project to the next!
 
a1ex2001 said:
If it's for the airport stick it at the airport otherwise you loose the hi speed travel bonus in transfers and mucking about an incurring all the additional cost of setting up a local rail infrastructure as east midlands airport has no rail connection! The hub station idea is horribly flawed as you introduce more steps into journeys
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Nottingham Council are planning to link East Midlands Airport with the new Hub Station via the existing tram system in the city. The decision to bypass the airport was made for cost reasons but I do take your point.

However, connecting the airport the local city via tram is more beneficial to the locals and cheaper to build so it may be a better idea.
 
Just to point out, the cost of a fare from Leeds to London, in Asian, take Japan, where similar trains run on time all days of the year would be around £80 pounds.
The Japanese don't do cheap rail travel, they do effective rail travel.

So when Lord chummy in charge of something says they will aim pricing at European/Asian equivalents, there is a massive amount if discrepancy.
 
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