Humans

That's actually the problem. Humanity is winning so hard we don't know how to manage the victory. If we don't learn quickly, we'll lose badly.
Hmm, that's debatable. A large chunk of those 7+ billion are living in poverty or failing to reach their 10th birthday.

And that's before thinking about record levels of mental health issues in developed countries.

We still have a long way to go before we're truly winning.
 
They damage in different ways. Tribes of poor people in Java killed all the tigers. Tribes of poor people across Persia (broadly speaking) wiped out the Caspian tiger. Poor people were wiping out the Siberian Tiger until education set in and numbers are starting to increase. Poor people were wiping out tigers in India at alarming rates until education and a slight increase in wealth are seeing numbers increase.

Indonesian tribes were wiping out alarming numbers of birds. We overfish, but fish populations are capable of some pretty dramatic recovery. Nature itself is a machine that can recover from near anything short of total cataclysm.

What we are perhaps talking about is the processes and by products of industrialization. Thinking leads the way. It was taught to me in Geography that the trans-Alaskan pipeline would have made Caribou migration impossible. Education solved that. And we mustn't ignore what interventions in invention we can produce.

Why did they do that? To sell to the richer people in more developed countries. Tiger and big cat parts for medicine in SE Asia/China, Bird of Paradise feathers to Europeans and North Americans in the 19th century. Education is certainly important, but lets not forget that a lot of the time the demand is from "educated" people in rich countries.

3 types of people in this thread:
Nihilists: Kill humans by plague/disease/stop having children (as long as it's someone else dying and not me types)
Optimists: People who know education can solve almost anything (it was impossible to cross the Atlantic just a hundred years ago other than by a long slow process)
Meh: I'll carry on as usual

1 and 3 are wrong. Education and by extension ingenuity can overcome. 1 may need some sensible thought but we could reduce world population down to 14,000 in less than 600years by all having one child.

The problem with your argument is always going to be the means: Who pays, at what price, why them and how it will be achieved, and what about everyone else especially those doing the imposing?

Or two, the "optimists" are just another "meh, I'll carry on as usual". The only difference between two and three is that two believes technology will change things, so they don't have to do anything.*

And erm... there's a small amount of difference between suggesting education and a gradual decline in birth rate/population and suggesting we should kill people that are already alive...

Probably worth mentioning that the reason we have so many "immigrants" in the developed world is because population replacement rate is below 2 in in a lot of those countries. The only reason populations are not going down in much of Western Europe, for example, is because of the immigrants arriving from other locations. Japan is taking the opposite approach, no immigration but trying desperately to persuade people to have more kids. The thing you are advocating the most (education) is the thing that is making birth rated decline.

Education and increased standards of living in Africa and Asia will naturally reduce birth rate and, all things being equal, create a natural population decline.

*Technology is one of the reasons we're in this mess in the first place. Things like better intensive farming techniques, better medication and the ability to build bigger and bigger things (dams, roads etc) are what is causing the massive population increase in places like Africa in the first place. It did the same in Europe in the 19th century.
 
Hmm, that's debatable. A large chunk of those 7+ billion are living in poverty or failing to reach their 10th birthday.

And that's before thinking about record levels of mental health issues in developed countries.

We still have a long way to go before we're truly winning.

Compare it with any time before recently and yes, we're clearly winning. A graph of world population over time shows that very strongly. Go back just a little way and 40% of people died before reaching their 15th birthday (most of them before reaching their 5th birthday). That was the norm everywhere until very recently. As were famines and plagues and sewage in the streets and lack of drinkable water and all the rest of it.
 
Compare it with any time before recently and yes, we're clearly winning. A graph of world population over time shows that very strongly. Go back just a little way and 40% of people died before reaching their 15th birthday (most of them before reaching their 5th birthday). That was the norm everywhere until very recently. As were famines and plagues and sewage in the streets and lack of drinkable water and all the rest of it.
Clearly there have been advances in medicine.

But is keeping people alive longer and exploding populations all it takes to be "winning"?

Even if by many measures we're doing better than the previous centuries, I wouldn't look at 21st century human civilisation and say we're in such great shape. Esp today when it can be argued we're already in something of a decline. Socially, especially.

Depends on how you define winning, I guess. I would have thought we'd hold ourselves to somewhat higher measures than the animal kingdom. After all, animal populations can explode with the clearly foreseeable and inevitable consequence of a large die-off if the favourable circumstances were only temporary. They were winning at the time and oblivious to their pending doom.

We're capable of seeing what's to come. Hence I'm not sure we're winning all that much.
 
It's all about dat economic growth, innit.

We must grow our economies at any cost. Any cost.

quoted for truth. Business and loans have been created around population growth and relies on new "earners" entering the paying human population to cover loans we have taken today. There are changes to the way the world economies work before the truth about population growth will be openly talked about. Until then, we will blame.. asbestos, oil, cows, plastic, CFC's....pick your poison....but the real issues is truly over population.
 
Ah... the good, old Agent Smith quote is always relevant :p

I'd like to share a revelation I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to another area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague...
 
Clearly there have been advances in medicine.

But is keeping people alive longer and exploding populations all it takes to be "winning"?

In evolutionary terms, yes. Humans are thriving to an unprecedented extent.

Even if by many measures we're doing better than the previous centuries, I wouldn't look at 21st century human civilisation and say we're in such great shape. Esp today when it can be argued we're already in something of a decline. Socially, especially.

Depends on how you define winning, I guess. I would have thought we'd hold ourselves to somewhat higher measures than the animal kingdom. After all, animal populations can explode with the clearly foreseeable and inevitable consequence of a large die-off if the favourable circumstances were only temporary. They were winning at the time and oblivious to their pending doom.

We're capable of seeing what's to come. Hence I'm not sure we're winning all that much.

OK, fair point. It does depend on how you define winning. Humanity's massive population explosion and quality of life improvement isn't due to temporary favourable circumstances though. It's due to humanity. So I'd say we're winning in a huge way. What you categorise as not winning, I categorised (and continue to categorise) as "winning so hard we don't know how to manage the victory".
 
Why did they do that? To sell to the richer people in more developed countries.

Not entirely so, most are due to ceremonial uses of the feathers. There are annual events where the tribes dress and congregate in huge numbers and dress as flamboyantly as possible. Each event requires a new dress.

Tiger and big cat parts for medicine in SE Asia/China,

Much less so now.

Bird of Paradise feathers to Europeans and North Americans in the 19th century

Yes in the 1800's. Now the ceremonial headdress and body dresses worn by many many thousands of people.

With tigers you are sort of proving my education point. When they are more educated they will know tiger bones don't and aren't a cure for a boner.

Education is certainly important, but lets not forget that a lot of the time the demand is from "educated" people in rich countries.

How much in comparison now? Historically yes. But now much less so if in some cases at all.


Or two, the "optimists" are just another "meh, I'll carry on as usual". The only difference between two and three is that two believes technology will change things, so they don't have to do anything.*

That's a subjective statement. On my street we recycle more plastic than anybody else I would guess. Just like I know the house in my street who recycles a lot of metal every week (if you get my drift). We can all make small changes that can have a big impact (for the better).

And erm... there's a small amount of difference between suggesting education and a gradual decline in birth rate/population and suggesting we should kill people that are already alive...

There certainly is, but in this thread it's proven people want a virus to wipe us out or other posters wanting something bad to happen to us. So the argument is being twisted into those who we could save we should let perish.

Probably worth mentioning that the reason we have so many "immigrants" in the developed world is because population replacement rate is below 2 in in a lot of those countries. The only reason populations are not going down in much of Western Europe, for example, is because of the immigrants arriving from other locations

Common knowledge.

Japan is taking the opposite approach, no immigration but trying desperately to persuade people to have more kids. The thing you are advocating the most (education) is the thing that is making birth rated decline.

Not in every instance. If education leads to ~2.1 BR, education can be done to increase this with various social mechanisms of support.

Education and increased standards of living in Africa and Asia will naturally reduce birth rate and, all things being equal, create a natural population decline.

Something I could tend in part to agree on.

*Technology is one of the reasons we're in this mess in the first place. Things like better intensive farming techniques, better medication and the ability to build bigger and bigger things (dams, roads etc) are what is causing the massive population increase in places like Africa in the first place. It did the same in Europe in the 19th century.

Technology is also one of the reasons we can prevent worse. Don't forget that as bad as you think we can do, nature can do far worse.

It is but having these people educated is all for the good.
 
We really are a scourge on the planet, trouble is to change this we would have to drastically change our lifestyles and it is simply not going to happen. Eventually things will get so bad, extreme famine will cause war and we will thin ourselves out.

To change our lifestyles but for the better, we are being asked to evolve, to optimise, to improve, which we maybe do but extremely slowly.
 
I'm not sure why the popular opinion of the Human race seems to be that we're some malevolent species hell bent on wiping everything out, we aren't. We've only been aware of our impact on the planet for the last few decades, and we still don't fully understand the mechanisms that we affect. We've put in place organisations to try and figure out the best way for us to live on this planet without destroying it. Once most people have the basics of their survival sorted such as food, water, shelter and heating, then they're quite happy to make changes so that they can co-exist with animals and look after the environment. That will happen over time. We're the only species this planet has ever produced that could potentially stop a mass extinction event like an asteroid, we're the only species to my knowledge that has actively saved other species from going extinct. In time we'll transform the way we live through technology and it makes sense for us to make the Earth the cleanest and most sustainable place it can be.
 
I'm not sure why the popular opinion of the Human race seems to be that we're some malevolent species hell bent on wiping everything out, we aren't. We've only been aware of our impact on the planet for the last few decades, and we still don't fully understand the mechanisms that we affect. We've put in place organisations to try and figure out the best way for us to live on this planet without destroying it. Once most people have the basics of their survival sorted such as food, water, shelter and heating, then they're quite happy to make changes so that they can co-exist with animals and look after the environment. That will happen over time. We're the only species this planet has ever produced that could potentially stop a mass extinction event like an asteroid, we're the only species to my knowledge that has actively saved other species from going extinct. In time we'll transform the way we live through technology and it makes sense for us to make the Earth the cleanest and most sustainable place it can be.

We've been aware since the late 19th century, at the very least the learned establishment was.

We're just more aware of the situation, what's likely to happen and our inability to do anything different.
 
So, what are we all individually doing about it then?

I've removed red meat from my diet. Increased my rates of recycling. I cycle to work rather than drive. I've cut down massively on the purchase of new goods and in particular avoid those that have been imported preferring to focus on UK manufactured items where possible.
Far from perfect but it's a start.
 
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